Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

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Rulzern
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Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

I need some help from you guys for calculating post-1k AR templates. The only two toons I have that can help are my crat and keeper.

Currently calculated:
Crat: ~1/13
Keeper: ~1/6
Doc: ~1/7

The way I'm calculating this is (and remember, only buffs that increase AR, nothing that gives +damage):

AR unbuffed = x1
AR buffed = x2
Damage unbuffed = y1
Damage buffed = y2
Max crit = z

(y2-y1)/(z*((x2-x1)/400))
This gives you a number which represents the post-1k AR template for your class. (or should, the posts I found on the AO forums are inconclusive and generally founded in hearsay)

Calculating the base damage for a given weapon when knowing post-1k AR template:

To calculate the factor with which to multiply the base values for damage, you need to know your AR, and if it is above 1k, the post-1k AR template for your profession.

If your AR is below 1k:
(AR/400)+1
So if you have 800 AR, it will be: (800/400)+1 = 3
A weapon with the stats of 100-200(150) will do: 300-600(750-1050) damage (critical hits will always hit for the maximum damage they can, after ACs have been taken into consideration, so you will always hit for 1050 crit damage on mobs with 0 AC, and 750 in min-damage situations.

If your AR is above 1k:
3.5+((AR-1000)*Post-1k AR template/400)

So if your AR is 1800, and your AR template is 1/4, you will get this:
3.5+((800)*0.25/400) = 4
And the same fictional weapon as before will do 400-800(1000-1400) damage.

If anyone has any questions or corrections, please let me know.
Last edited by Rulzern on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Rulzern
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

For crat:

x1 = 2013
x2 = 2163

y1 = 2705
y2 = 2723

z = 613

y2-y1 = 18
x2-x1 = 150

Raising AR by 150 increases damage by 18.

613*(150/400) = 229.875

If my AR was below 1k, it would raise damage by 229.875

18/229.875 =~ 0.078 =~ 1/13

For keeper:

x1 = 2483
x2 = 2600

y1 = 4886
y2 = 4931

z = 941

y2-y1 = 45
x2-x1 = 117

Raising AR by 140 increases damage by 45.

941*(117/400) = ~275.24

If my AR was below 1k, it would raise damage by 275.24

45/275.24 =~ 0.163 =~ 1/6

EDIT: Calcs for keeper were wrong... I feel silly.
Last edited by Rulzern on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rulzern
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

Also note that this might not be linear, so if you have more data (for drastically different AR, like 1.1k and 2.8k), please post it. :)
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noobas
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by noobas »

To help this along, which I want to do, I have a couple alts to try it on, so which numbers do you want us to find:

1. go hit a RK mob, crit an RK mob, write down both numbers.
2. buff your AR (not AAO, not damage, but acutal skill?) and do the same thing?

The use this formula to find the factor that describes the under/over damage difference of 1k AR.. is that right?

soo, could we use like the red research hud and a weapon skill buff? I could do that on my keeper (150) and MA.

on MA it will be way different I'm thinking. I think the post will be 1/1 because of MA damage scaling, just a hunch.
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Rulzern
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

For MA you have to only buff AAO, not MA skill. For others (as long as you don't use MA) you can buff AAO and/or skill, but not damage.

Or rather, you can buff damage, but you have to subtract that added damage from your buffed damage number.

I suggest using BY leets, since they have no ACs, so ACs won't interfere. The other option is using a mob you will only hit min damage on, but BY leets are better since you get more precicion the larger the numbers are.

Make sure you don't exceed the MBS on the weapon.
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

Calcs for doc:

y1 = 2837
y2 = 2854
x1 = 1395
x2 = 1455
z = 751

x2-x1 = 60
y2-y1 = 17

17/(751*(60/400)) = 17/112.64 = 1/6.63

So doc post-1k AR template is ~1/7 (better then crat apparently, only .5 worse than keeper O.o)

This smells of non-linearity, more testing definately needed :p
Last edited by Rulzern on Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Elrojo »

the problem you have is that you would need to scale your AR's from 1000-1100, 1100-1200 etc etc. and then test each one.

I forget all my graph terminology but the relatinship could plateu. So the difference in 1K AR and 1100 AR may me much more than the difference between 2000 and 2100.

I can see the use of this test since you could work out at what point does striving for more AR become pointless as the loss of other things will only result in minimal +dmg.

I have questions about the issue

1) do you know that it scales differently for different professions?

2) If thats a definite then each prof should be tested at different AR levels.

3) If not then you need to test all profs or at least 1/2 at the same or near as possible AR.

4) your doc has 2800 AR?
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

Rojo,

1) Yes.

2) Yes, they should.

3) Yup.

4) Nope. EDIT: Swapped the x and y around on doc to make it clear. :p

The problem with doing a lot of testing at widely different AR is that... well, do you see this thread overflowing with activity? So far I'm the only one doing any testing, what would be nice would be if other people came in and tested their toons as well, then when we have 2-3 readings for the doc post-1k AR template we'll have a better idea of how it works.
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Elrojo »

will help out on shade as i lvl i guess.

Wearing ql300 rapiers so wont be going over MBS. Would also be interesting to see if your ratios hold up over different weapons in the same prof. should do but interesting to see.

So the process is what? Record unbuffed AR. Whack 10 BY reets, avg dmg and then do the same buffed with new AR? Should i record the value of crits before and after? Do you want stats on specials like FA?
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

Steps to test:

1) Write down unbuffed AR.
2) Kill one BY leet (the hit will always be a crit).
3) Write down damage.
4) Buff AR.
5) Write down buffed AR.
6) Kill one BY leet.
7) Write down damage.
8) Write down max crit bonus (max damage + crit bonus, so for example, for a 100-200(300) weapon, it would be 200+300 = 500).
9) Post here.
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Elrojo »

213 shade. Wearing 300 rapiers. 280-340 (340)

AR: 2002

Dmg 3100 (+15 dmg on the buff)

AR: 1862

Dmg 3033

AR 2026

Dmg 3105

AR 2166

Dmg 3226 (+15dmg)

AR 2184

Dmg 3231 (+15dmg)
Rulzern
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

Oki, first to figure out if this is linear or not:

Base AR: 1862
Base Damage: 3033
AR difference: 140
Damage difference: 52
AR difference: 164
Damage difference: 57
AR difference: 304
Damage difference: 178
AR difference: 322
Damage difference: 183

140/52 = 2.69
164/57 = 2.88
304/178 = 1.71
322/183 = 1.76

There's obviously a +dmg buff not listed running in the numbers for 2166 and 2184 AR. Although the first two numbers would suggest non-linearity, as we would expect the damage difference for 2026 AR to be 61 if it was using the same ratio as 2002.

And finally, the post-1k AR template for the lower two numbers, and the highest two numbers:

Low:
52/(680(140/400)) = 52/238 ~= 0.22

High:
5/(680(18/400)) = 5/30.6 ~= 0.16

This is non-linear, but it's hard to get an accurate feel for _how_ non-linear it is (if that 5 was a 6, the difference in the ratios would be half the size the numbers indicate). We do, however, know that the real difference is greater than 0.018, so you get less than 90% of the return you got at 1862 AR at 2166 AR.
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

So after doing some more investigating, this is turning out to be a really hard nut to crack.

On my keeper, the template varies between 1/2 and 1/6 between 2235 and 2595 AR, with an average over the sample space of ~1/3. There's a huge (but not immidiate) drop between 2400 and 2500 (The average at 2235-2392 is 0.46, the average 2520-2595 is 0.16).

What it looks like, is that it's linear within a certain area, but that there's more than one change in AR scaling.

Numbers:

Code: Select all

Keeper:
AR	Damage	Template
2235	4498	
2260	4524	0,4421
2275	4539	0,4251
2300	4563	0,4081
2335	4602	0,4737
2360	4629	0,4591
2368	4639	0,5313
2393	4667	0,4761
2425	4694	0,3587
2465	4718	0,2550
2495	4731	0,1842
2520	4740	0,1530
2535	4746	0,1700
2560	4755	0,1530
2595	4768	0,1579

150 doc
AR	Damage	Template
1070	2093	
1110	2102	0,1667
1170	2115	0,1605
1203	2122	0,1571
1326	2149	0,1626
1366	2158	0,1667
1426	2171	0,1605
1459	2178	0,1571
1484	2183	0,1481
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Elrojo »

rulzie while its non-linear it seems to follow the general trend of evening out the higher the AR gets. I guess it is what you would expect. The very maximum levels of AR will not really result in a huge dmg increase compared with an AR around 90% of it. However when you are talking about the "base" AR as compared with "reasonable buffing" you do get a significant increase in dmg as a ratio of the increase of the AR.

I think the most profitable piece of knowledge would be to work out the point to which striving for more AR is not worth it.
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Re: Calculating base damage post 1k AR - Help needed

Post by Rulzern »

Well, this thread is kinda pointless now, until I can gather up the energy to do a more complete test of AR 1k-2.5k+ from more than one prof, with smaller deltas between the measurements.

From a cursory glance (as it stands now), it seems that the post-1k AR template is fairly set (perhaps 1.1k is more appropriate, can't tell without better tests). That is that there's one template pre-1k, one 1k-2.4k, and post 2.5k, with the template decreasing linearly from 2.4k to 2.5k (and maybe from 1k to 1.1k).

What I'd like to do, is get something like an EQB on my keeper, and IPR, and then record values for every increase in AR from 1k to ~3k, that should make all the changes in AR template apparent.
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