Forum time display is UTC  





Post new topic Reply to topic
 

  AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
Author Message
    PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:44 am 
Strong Leet
Offline

Posts: 113
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:22 am
Currently I am collecting a few last items to get my alphas on my soldier.
and was wondering as a PvE toon, would SMG's be better.
currently have 3.5k attack rating, would swapping to SMG be worth the AR drop

Current setup (less beta's of course, and DB armor is actually operative)
https://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=204550
(perks are for soloing additional heals at present)

so I would be less art of war nano at +200 assault rifle
and down 150 base (difference between AR and SMG perks)
taking the base attack rating 3.15k

also at present my FA is 10 second recycle (2360)
Burst is 6 seconds (2027)
would those recycles stay similar (and is it worth resetting them to get to whatever value is the min. to keep those recharges i.e. put them both at 2k or whatever the value is)


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:21 am 
Hyde!
User avatar
Offline

Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:26 am
I don't have hard numbers, but based on posts on the AO forums, Envy + PDKP are the top PVE combo right now. The lower attack rating really isn't going to affect you for PVE. 3K+ perks nearly everything and 2.5K+ hits virtually everything.

I'd been thinking about it but since I don't want to go through the IPR to build the PDKP I've decided to stick to AR. And I'd like to have somewhat decent PVP ... maybe ... which will mean saving the non-AR IP, including multi ranged.

If you decide against PDKP, dual SMG still significantly outperforms AR for pure PVE.


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:22 am 
Leetissimo!
User avatar
Offline

Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
@ hyde

I wouldn't say significantly.

The problem is lack of diversification from "tried and true" set ups (usually meaning right after this AI raid I'm going to Tara, and I'm not interested in swapping gear).


Here's the thing, Anger of xan, say, as your preferred AR rifle, has a enormous max damage and critical, while an envy is significantly lower.

https://aoitems.com/item/280722/anger-of-the-xan/ 910 max damage + critical
https://aoitems.com/item/280724/envy-of-the-xan/ 696 max damage + critical

basically, that's about 30% higher.
base damage is 268 vs 320 which isn't a huge difference: about 20% higher.
base damage+critical is 556 vs 670 (20%)

The tried and true setup for AR soldiers, traditionally, has been basically: stack assault rifle skill, stack FA skill, stack AO skill so you can always hit your target. But in PVE, this becomes somewhat of a moot point when simply putting perks into the right slots will allow you to reliably hit your target.

The appropriate setup for PVE AR soldiers is a crit based setup with secondary stats in add damage, AAO, then AR/FA/burst/HP/AC, etc.

With:
15% targeting scope
5% snipers friend
5% in awakened pad
3% in gauntlet pad
5% in chest
3% on ACDC
2% on board
2% x2 on sleeves
2% in hat

you're at 44% plus base I think is 3%.

That will immediately raise your damage output by a minimum of 15% over SMG soldiers based on white damage (if same levels of crit were used for each setup), but because the SMG setup can't reliably use so much crit, the difference is much larger. It's larger still vs low AC mobs (RK vs SL), but the actual increase is more complex and hard to quantify since many aspects of an encounter can change.

Regardless, here are some basic numbers.

SMG has a lower damage, AND lower multiplier.

268*5.0 = 1340 + add dmg
696*5.0 = 3480 + add dmg
Average damage at 20% crit= 0.8*1340+0.2*3480 = 1768+add dmg

The AR multiplier (for soldiers) for Assault Rifle is higher, afaik, at 3.2k AR, it's about 5.2

So, your base damage is 320*5.2 + add damage = 1664 +add dmg
a critical is about 910*5.2+add damage = 4732 + add dmg
At 47% crit your average damage is: 0.53*1664+0.47*4732 = 3106+add dmg

The kicker is that you can boost the already much higher critical damage by a much larger amount on AR vs SMG.

So, we're starting with smaller numbers, multiplying by smaller numbers, and the critical multiplier is lower on SMG. Whereas, on AR we're starting with bigger numbers, the multipliers are higher and the crit multiplier is higher. The concession is that SMG has more attacks per minute (max 34ish on SMG, vs max 28ish on AR), and SMG has max 10 extra flingshots per minute.

That means that the SMG gets about 44 hits for every 28 the AR does.

Accounting for hit frequency:
3106 base damage * 28 = 86968
1768 * 44 = 77792

So even after accounting for the SMG hit frequency (assuming Envy+ratata), the AR wins out.

But, there's a bit more.

Next we have to add burst. And burst is a big contributor to AR damage. Burst bullets cannot crit, but the base-max damage on AR is significantly higher than it is for SMG. For example, it's possible to get 10k bursts on AR soldier, while it's rare to break 8k on SMG.

Based on the addition of burst, numbers just keep adding on for AR:

3 bullets * 60s/8s recharge * 1664 =37440 (AR)
3 bullets * 60s/8s rech * 1340 = 30150 (SMG)

FA is approximately even on both weapons and subject to some random distribution, but AR should come out slightly ahead just based on the tail of the distribution where a bullet early in the FA misses/is deflected and then the min damage on the AR starts to mean something, but realistically both weapons should be comparable.

So, in order to make a solid PVE setup using AR, the basic concept is to max the geometric increases. And this is what constitutes the conceptual design. When you consider how to boost damage, you want to use geometric multipliers, not linear. Linear multipliers is stuff like add damage.

Perk damage is comparable for either setup, assuming AR soldier uses Ranged energy perkline which is where the bulk of his perk damage comes from.

One of the biggest problems AR soldiers have is not knowing that the RE perkline requires RE. Even veteran soldiers I've spoken with over the years didn't know that raising RE skill was valuable. By maxing RE, AND buffing it, the perkline adds about 8k damage/minute. The perk damage scales with skill so the high end skill RE results in massive damage boosts from the non-skilled ones.

I agree with Hyde that an SMG+PDKP will most definitely outperform an AR soldier, but trust me on this, AR soldiers are not BAD, if you set them up for crit.

FYI - the problem with setting SMG soldiers up for crit is that you end up with pretty low AR, like 2900-3k which is enough for most stuff, but, like, if you're fighting phobettor, and you're missing him due to low AR... that's not going to fly.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____
" I Don't Like That Man. I Must Get To Know Him Better." -Abraham Lincoln


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:50 am 
Strong Leet
Offline

Posts: 113
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:22 am
perfect, thanks Noobas!


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:33 am 
Hyde!
User avatar
Offline

Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:26 am
Good tip on the RE perks ("Power Up" for those like me that didn't know it was based on RE).

Also, SMG/Shotty soldiers are going to use SMG Mastery which gives good +dmg to boost things a bit more, and Shotgun Mastery which gives a big +dmg as well as 4 more DD perks. Shotgun Mastery is a lot of what makes the PDKP build what it is.

AR on the other hand gives you better PVP flexibility (and more IP free to use AS/etc) while still definitely not sucking.

My personal plan on mine is to stay AR. If I want to be a dmg toon I'll run my Fixer and/or Shade ... or roll an Eng. Or put a PDKP on an Agent (that thread on AO forums is a little nuts). Soldier doesn't need to be MAX damage. Just posting the alternatives.


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:32 pm 
King Size Leet
Offline

Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:16 pm
Also, about original question, the time calculation for special return tend to mean :
- Burst will be approx the same return period with Envy than Anger
- oppositely, FA risks to be longer back on Envy as its cycle is twice bigger


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:51 am 
Leetissimo!
User avatar
Offline

Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Hyde wrote:
Or put a PDKP on an Agent (that thread on AO forums is a little nuts). Soldier doesn't need to be MAX damage. Just posting the alternatives.


I've been thinking about reinstalling AO just so I an try this setup out. my 200 agent is mostly finished research and has a colossal XP pool so I think I could get to 220 pretty quickly.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____
" I Don't Like That Man. I Must Get To Know Him Better." -Abraham Lincoln


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:43 pm 
Leetissimo!
User avatar
Offline

Posts: 1449
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:49 pm
What perk line to lose in order to get RE perk line, health?


Top
 
 Profile  

 

  Re: AR vs SMG @ 220 Soldier
    PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:08 am 
Leetissimo!
User avatar
Offline

Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
If you're talking about AR soldier, I'd go something like:

8 heavy range
10 power up
10 colossal health
10 special forces
2 genius/freak strength

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____
" I Don't Like That Man. I Must Get To Know Him Better." -Abraham Lincoln


Top
 
 Profile  

 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

Forum time display is UTC  


  Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Athen Paladins is a large and old Organization of players ("Guild") founded in June 2003 in Anarchy Online,
a SF MMORPG created and published by Funcom (www.anarchy-online.com)
The names Anarchy Online and Funcom are the property of Funcom, Norway.
All trademarks and copyrighted material on this site are the property of their respective owners. All rights reserved.
This site is a non-profit and non-commercial site, solely made for the entertainment of Anarchy Online players.
Athen Paladins is a non-profit association
Athen Paladins theme created by © Chrisax, based on 4poziom by © gokin (www.gokin.pl), and Subsilver2 & Prosilver by © phpBB (www.phpbb.com)
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007, 2008 phpBB Group - Modifications by Chrisax and other authors.

W3 Consortium CSS approved