Booster pack questions!

A place to discuss and compare items, armors, weapons, etc., and see how to combine them
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Alphacenta
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Alphacenta »

Syn_captian wrote:I completely disagree that MR is a waste for a soldier:

<snip>

While 3202 AR is ok, it's not that great, and if you go against a decent evade prof, they are gonna rape you no problem, 4780 however, will make most any evade prof shake in their boots, not to mention that you get wit of the trox which adds about 350 more dodge rnged which if you have running, gives you a static def of roughly 2.7k =)
The problem in your logic is that no soldier will ever use that setup. Because that which you gain, is not worth what you lose. Pre-LE, yes, there were evade soldiers around. But keep in mind that everyone had much lower AR then, soldiers had no 5% reflect in the back, reflect game mechanics worked much differently, there was no real good option for Assault Rifles so lots of soldiers just ran around with a Type 3 Energy Carbine for AS.

Things you lose:

Ability to perk stuff w/o MR.
Ability to land a decent FA w/o MR.
5% reflects from the back and what not which matters ALOT.
Nanoresist. Your setup doesn't even have a HHAB, that is not realistic at all unless you are dueling certain profs.
LOTS of cash, while a normal setup will have 4 AI armor pieces and for the rest NODROP items, your setup has 7 AI armor pieces, a Notucomm, two iGoCs, etc. You're looking at a difference of almost 1.9B!
Less hp, which is essential to survive an alpha during AMS downtime.

Things you gain:

2.7k static def. Hell even agents in def setup can perk through that. Agents are a low AR prof still, there are plenty out there that will just rip through those 2.7k def like it is nothing.

----------------------------

I'm running around with 2.9kish def myself (as an agent), and let me tell you, I am getting perked and hit ALOT by various toons. The only reason I'm using this particular setup, is because I can't outheal all the damage being thrown at me in the BS otherwise. Soldiers however have no problems with defense (as long as there's no trader/engineer/NT around), they can AMS up and have that all sorted for 1:20.

And let's be clear. 2.7k def is not going to save you from engineer reflect rippers. 2.7k def is not going to save you from a trader BRing and perking you. 2.7k def is not going to save you, at all, from a NT with LE nukes.

Soldiers simply need AR way more than evades, so they can kill that trader quickly, so they can perk that NT even when blinded. And in a decent setup, MR is not going to make them able to kill more toons. Fixers and MAs will die to AS spam anyway, you don't need MR for them.

Also, popping MR, then debuffing evades, then waiting for that defense action to run out will not work. Soldier dodge debuffs last around 20 seconds at most. And guess what? The MR cooldown lasts 20 seconds as well, and debuffs your AR by -1k.
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Syn_captian »

You wanna bet no real soldier would use that set up? The entire time i was making it i was bouncing ideas off ocene who said

"If i was trox i would use that set up"

As far as missing the ability to "perk stuff without MR" your wrong, as of right now on my gimptastic soldier (who has less AR then the set up would have w/o MR running) i can perk most everyone (except for amazing evade debuffed people, and even i sometimes can perk them (Example:Scumtron))
Im not arguing that this set up is for everyone, but if you know how to play your profession well enough and you actually have the things to make this usefull, this will be a really great set up.

And as far as your logic with:
"Soldiers however have no problems with defense (as long as there's no trader/engineer/NT around), they can AMS up and have that all sorted for 1:20."
A good soldier isnt worried about the 1:20 his AMS is up, they are worried about it being down. A lot of times a duel can change just because a evade prof was being reckless and thinking "oh his ams is down, i dont need to hit evades" or somethikng like that, in which case, if you get your AMS back or even withstand them long enough to use AMS again, they are easy as pie and you win the fight
*NOTE* that typically doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen a lil bit

And also, HHAB, imho isnt worth having after you have all the stuff you need in pande, fully decked out NR as a soldier, unless you NR perk, isnt gonna save your butt from any nano that someone wants to cast on you. really isn't even any point in raising it on a soldier imho
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Alphacenta
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Alphacenta »

Syn_captian wrote:You wanna bet no real soldier would use that set up? The entire time i was making it i was bouncing ideas off ocene who said

"If i was trox i would use that set up"
In my entire time pvping in AO, I have seen a grand total of one soldier use MR, and he was not an evade setup and generally sucked.

As for your soldier having a gimptastic AR, how does landing a decent FullAuto against a target with decent evades go? I'm pretty certain an evade enf like Xterminatore, Harios, or Shimka is going to have an easy time evading most of your FA. And yes, Ocene and various other soldiers say they land low FAs with 3.5k++ AR on evadeish targets. You'll need to cap, MR is no replacement for constant high AR. Go ask Ocene, Xtersoold, or another endgame pvp soldier, how important high AR is for a soldier if you don't believe me. :)
Syn_captian wrote:And as far as your logic with:
"Soldiers however have no problems with defense (as long as there's no trader/engineer/NT around), they can AMS up and have that all sorted for 1:20."
A good soldier isnt worried about the 1:20 his AMS is up, they are worried about it being down. A lot of times a duel can change just because a evade prof was being reckless and thinking "oh his ams is down, i dont need to hit evades" or somethikng like that, in which case, if you get your AMS back or even withstand them long enough to use AMS again, they are easy as pie and you win the fight
*NOTE* that typically doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen a lil bit
If you are going to talk duels, there are typically two options:

a) You're duelling a gimp. They're dead before your AMS is out typically, because most of them don't know how to pvp. In which case you are not going to have to worry about the AMS downtime.
b) You're dueling someone that's hard to kill. They're typically an endgame pvper, because the rest should be steamrolled by a 220 soldier in a decent setup that knows how to play. Endgame pvpers have a decent equip.

Do you, honestly, believe that 2.7k def is going to make you unperkable to any endgame pvp equipped toon other than maybe a doc, engineer or MP that don't rely on perks or regulars to kill you anyway? I run around with 2.9k def, and I'm telling you, I still get perked by the endgame pvpers. Thats 200 more def than this setup will get you.

Do you, honestly, believe that an experienced endgame pvper will be stupid enough to forget to perk his evades just because your AMS is down? Things like cycling Acrobat perks are done almost without thinking by this sort of experienced pvper, it is a second nature to them. There are even toons like Divine001 that will save their best evade perks for the time your AMS is down, because then they can't sit down for extra healdelta anymore because they have to alpha.

What I do know, is that the 5% reflect and 4k more hp or what it was that you get from equipping the OFAB back/gloves/pads/helm/chest, can be a lifesaver when it comes to surviving that 220 pvpers' alpha during AMS downtime.
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Syn_captian »

This is gonna be my last post concerning this issue b/c obvious some people dont care to understand my logic behind it and prefer to be ignorant to it:

1.) WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT 2.7K STATIC DEF MAKES YOU UNPERKABLE?
~ i didn't, this brings up the point of, why did you even say i did in the first place and why do you insist on carrying on with it?

2.) WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT HIGH AR ISNT IMPORTANT?
~ Again, i didnt, im not a moron dood, i know AR is important. For some reason everyone wants to forget that ive been a soldier for roughly 5 years....how long have you been a soldier? Don't assume things just because you have pvped soldiers a lot on how to play them or what thier set up should be. As i said before, it's not for everyone, but for somepeople this set up would work well.

3.)Will this much static def make you evade more and MAYBE help you win?
~ YES! most evade profs in full evade set up (which they usually have to pvp in for soldiers) have roughly 2.9-3k AR. This is more than 2.7k static, but for them missing a hit or something it could be a life save, might not happen a lot, but it could. Also allows you to perk some other heals which you wouldn't normally have in another AR set up.

Lastly, I made this set up thinking "alright, faros asked me to help him with different set ups ingame" And now, after i make it, im getting attacked by people who don't see the use in this set up. This is what i have to say to you who dont understand it or it's uses:

It's not for you to understand.

Im not saying this is the very best set up ever, or even saying "OMG IF YOU USE THIS YOU WILL NEVER LOSE CUZ YOU CANT GET HIT OR DIE AND IF YOU DO YOU R USE AMS + HEALZ AND U IZ OK FOR A LONG TIME!" Any EXPERIENCED player knows that one set up wont solve all your problems,you have to have multiple set ups for different situations, who knows, this set up could be a better PVM set up with the perks swapped a lil bit for soloing soldiers.

And also, alpha, why do you have to go around wherever i post and for some reason (it seems like to me) try to prove me wrong/shut me down? Even if it's a post on opinion like this one:

"IMHO best set up for a Atrox solja b/c of MR making up for the lack of AR and wit adding more to evades"

Did i do something to you to make you mad or what?
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noobas
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by noobas »

Sounds to me like there might have been a couple miscommunications somewhere.

But, it sounds to me like this setup is focussed towards evade profs.

Because the only reason anyone uses MR is against evade profs. Ok, fine, next, we're talking about heals and defences vs AR. I don't see anythign wrong here with cap's argument.

in this case, some defences such as heals are maximized, while others are given less considereation, such as NR. Ok. (further evidence that the setup is geared more towards melee, shooter profs, and less to nano profs).

Next, evasive action as a theme in sold prof: I can see here that this is geared towards lower AR profs, such as trader (undrained), agent, doc, engi. Fair enough, but, imo I don't see much value in this.

Lastly: we're also discussing the arena in which the toon would be the most prominent fighter.

Ok, to me, when someoen says MR, the first thing that comes to mind is dueling. But thats just me. To me, in BS, and towers, and tara, I feel it's much more important to be able to land a hit 75% of the time all the time, than 100% of the time for 10 second windows.

In duels it is controlled environment, but everywhere else, youre spamming dmg as fast as possible and often there isn't time to organize an alpha at a certain time. I could be totally wrong here, but, thats my interpretation.
Other than that, A setup is a setup, and everyone knows, a setup needs testing before we can really argue it's merits, everything else is only speculative. So, I'll be stoked to hear about the results. And, just because other solds don't do it, doesn't mean it's a bad thing... it's just different.
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Alphacenta
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Alphacenta »

First off, no, I'm not trying to stalk you or anything Captian. I'm not mad at you either, or trying to offend you.

I'm just giving my opinion on things that are AFAIK wrong, like the thing with the MP pets having over 2k AR at TL5.. I seriously doubt that, and I listed the reasons why. You know that these pets come from SL (or pre165 even from RK), and that only since LE TL5s have started reaching 2k AR in exceptional setups? Don't you think those pets would be extremely overpowered when they just came out since they would have been able to hit all the TL5 evaders without a problem?

The same goes for that soldier evade setup, I do not see the use in it. I use a TL7 evade setup on my agent, which has more evades than the setup you mentioned. I know from experience that while evades are nice, they are not going to stop a TL7 from alphaing you.

My orgmates will be coming here for advice on their toons, ideas for new setups, etc. While your def setup will probably rock for a pvm tank (they don't need very high AR, and evades work very nice in pvm still), it is simply not worth the losses for a pvp setup in my eyes. So I write a post about what I think is wrong with it, so my orgmates will know the other side of the story too. Like Noobas said, the setup has not been tested, you do not know how it will work out in practice on a soldier. If you want to use it yourself, go for it, noone's stopping you. I'll be very interested in the results although I doubt that they will be super good.

I've made weird setups myself, for example, I have a L90 nanomage agent in full Combined Officers on the way for TL3 pvp. I haven't got a clue how this will work out in an actual pvp environment, friends have stated their opinions on it and some say it will work great while others say it absolutely won't because of its lack of evades and gimpier-than-usual-AR. But I do not go around saying that it is the BEST setup for a 90 agent out there (while it might be the best, or actually suck very hard), just because it looks nice on paper. I'll be doing the actual pvp first before telling other peoples to make toons in a similar setup.

Now as for the third point of your post, you say that the toons you will be fighting have rougly 2.9k-3k AR. So they will be perking you. Then you say that their missing a few hits will make all the difference in surviving them during AMS downtime. That's also true. But what you seem to forget, is that to get this defense rating, just by using CSS in the helmet/body/gloves, iGoCs in the shoulders, instead of some OFAB parts, you gave up like 4k hp and 5% reflect. That's around four regular hits already from the average prof (excepting MA).

Last, nothing is preventing you from perking other heals in an ARish setup unless I missed something? :)
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by faros1978 »

I red what u all said and they are interesting. Thanks Captian for the ideas lupus and noobas for their opinions. I did something better for myself afetr reading and testing so the original post had some good results. I will post my new set up , my stats and still i need your opinions. I like having some NR is the truth (sometimes i can resist some nanos.....and that gives me time to finish my enemy or run away in BS ) I changed a perk line exchanging dmg (and RE skill) for some AR more + a hot heal and dot remover. I am in the process to take out intel brain for syndicate one to gain 50 FA more + 25-27 AR and some NR. it will be interesting to test that.

Again thanks all of u and if a new idea come up feel free to post :D
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Alphacenta
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Alphacenta »

Oh one last thing popped up about NR in my thoughts just now.. I run Null Space Disruptor when there is a BS with a lot of soldiers, or when I'm dueling a soldier that is going to be using RI. That's an aura, refreshing every 20 seconds or so. What is funny, that on some soldiers it will land every tick (they have bad NR and/or don't fight full DEF), while on other soldiers it lands almost never.. they have decent NR, and fight full DEF.

There's a really clear line in NSD landing rates between these guys, it's like you are comparing the colors black and white.

Of course that's just one debuff, from one prof in a specific setup.
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Rulzern »

You guys are all silly, an all-out evade sol is a silly concept of course, but so is an all-out anything, I think it's still an interesting concept, balanced with HP and reflects, it might even be decent in some situations. Dismissing a setup because it doesn't fit your concept of a prof isn't a good thing to do, especially when the setup is being discussed between experienced players. I wouldn't use that setup if I was making a soldier, but I wouldn't use a remod on my crat either, and I think it's silly, that doesn't mean it doesn't work in certain situations, and there's no setup that is "the best", there are setups that work better than others in some situations and when playing a certain way.

So there, stop bickering, and being offtopic! [-X

Also, booster pack and stuff, yeah. <- ontopic
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by faros1978 »

Alpha can u pls be more specific...decent NR is...? how much :D ? And rulzern hmmmm .....yes we love to be silly and we dont want mixed type of RE/AR weapon :P
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by noobas »

I'm beating you in posts faros!

and, btw, MA nemesis is MP, and enforcer nemesis is MA.

Actually, I think MA sold is good matchup, both in team and otherwise.

I love dueling noba and soldiermate, 2 DD's is cool, rulz likes to mezz, but I like to kill mobs before they can kill me !
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Alphacenta
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Alphacenta »

Rulzern wrote:You guys are all silly, an all-out evade sol is a silly concept of course, but so is an all-out anything, I think it's still an interesting concept, balanced with HP and reflects, it might even be decent in some situations. Dismissing a setup because it doesn't fit your concept of a prof isn't a good thing to do, especially when the setup is being discussed between experienced players. I wouldn't use that setup if I was making a soldier, but I wouldn't use a remod on my crat either, and I think it's silly, that doesn't mean it doesn't work in certain situations, and there's no setup that is "the best", there are setups that work better than others in some situations and when playing a certain way.

So there, stop bickering, and being offtopic! [-X

Also, booster pack and stuff, yeah. <- ontopic
Well said, though using a remod on a crat was at first just a sarcastic action by Crattey (similar to how he equipped a SOFC before he quit once again, to laugh at Wilsonat's posts on the AO forums).. Some crats actually do use it seriously now. :) Same would go for keepers running around in CSS instead of CC.. though they -can- get enough evades to make a big difference, unlike imo soldiers. :)

Each prof probably has a lot of different setups, like I'm a defense setup agent and refuse to get a satéstick (Piercing Evil) to alphakill stuff. But for some setups... I just don't see why you would get them.

Oh IIRC Wilbemine used an evade setup, but I can't remember if he found it good or if he just couldn't be arsed to get a "new style" setup fixed up. Sadly he quit the game now so I can't ask him. :( Knowing Wilbe, it was probably the latter though. ^^
faros1978 wrote:Alpha can u pls be more specific...decent NR is...? how much :D ? And rulzern hmmmm .....yes we love to be silly and we dont want mixed type of RE/AR weapon :P
I don't know.

Talk to Xtersoold (he plays his enf Xterminatore alot now), Ocene, Esquobar, Sellex, Kirarra, Fortermen, Djigit, Beertrinker, Fluortanten, iirc Gastly too or soldiers like them. I have issues landing NSD on them, there's probably more, but these guys come to mind quickly.

Soldiers like Ctrannik, Hellgator, Moldark, Zeroenigma, Xsold, Bishopz (this guy sucks really bad), Hektxor, Suphlex, Hailstorm, Shopmate, and various walking dsharks that usually can't perk me either are easy to land NSD on. Talk to some of them too, and find out what they are doing wrong (bad NR or full agg with aggdef bar).

Should be able to figure out a value with these guys. :)
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by faros1978 »

Whenever u can alpha would u like to make some tests when i fend my set up?
Thanks for saying yes :P
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Alphacenta
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Alphacenta »

faros1978 wrote:Whenever u can alpha would u like to make some tests when i fend my set up?
Thanks for saying yes :P
Sure thing. :)
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Re: Booster pack questions!

Post by Syn_captian »

just a note, ive seen Ctran's (or hellgator, cant remember which one) armor set up, hes in full AR....so i seriously doubt he's not able to perk you lol (he has roughly 3.7k AR) Although i wont agrue that he's a walking Dshark, more about timing than AR otherwise you can have fun launching as many bullets into your agent friend as you want, your still gonna lose lol

Fake scenario:

Random soldier: mwhahaha i have eleventy bagilion AR and Dshark, i r keellz all!
decent agent: lets duel
random soldier: mwahaha good thing i can do 15000 in one hit =D i r keelz you in one hit =D
decent agent: alright show me
random soldier: /duel
5
4
3
2
1
Random soldier: *AMS at start* burst FA perk 1, 2, 3, 4
agent:*CH*
Rinse repeat
Random soldier: I LOST?!?!?! pfft this game sucks, im going to WoW where i can be good even if i have no skill!
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