MA Weapons

A place to discuss and compare items, armors, weapons, etc., and see how to combine them
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Forcenum
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Forcenum »

Ok, my friends 150 MA is "finished" now. It has 1300+ evades, and about 1100 AR, and it pretty much pwns sec10, But he still lacks the finishing power in PvP to take down my 150 twinks. Ok, he is unexperienced in PvP, but shouldnt he at least be able to take down my Atrox 2hb MP? My demon dont even hit, i just nuke his sorry ass (NR is a bit low)

He misses a lot, but when he hits, his crits hurt BAD (1418 criticals). We have been thinking he needs a bow, and maybe some sort of weapon with FA and SA. I was thinking Sapphistic Bow and maybe a Flabbergaster? should that be enough to do better, or is it just a lost cause to be good both in pvp and pvm at 150?

Should we focus on higher AR and sacrifise som of the evades, or keep evades and hope sneak/as does the trick?
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Alphacenta
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Alphacenta »

I'm thinking your friend is just a bit on the gimpy side, because 150 MA is supposed to have WAY WAY WAY WAY more AR than 1.1k, especially if they want to PvP.

Post a setup it wouldn't surprise me to see pred armor or lion armor with those stats, instead of CM or CC.

Concerning the pvm or pvp thing - 150 MA won't do good in pvp UNLESS you twinked them properly for pvp. A pvm setup MA will get his ass handed to him in pvp. :) But the pvp setup MA, while not as much pvm damage as the pvm MA, will still do very well in pvm as far as I know.

Oh I thought up one more thing - does your friend use claws or some other weapon now as well? Those lower your AR a LOT. Pvp MA at that level should just use his bare fists to spank peoples.

Bow might work, but iirc Calenzen tried it and wasn't very impressed, so try to ungimp first. :)
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by noobas »

My opinion on this is that MA's have more evades than they need, especially if you have CiB and dof/limber.

Most setups at 150 include a fair amount of evades gear, such as strong armour/CM/CC, and pred.

I've got a twinked keeper, and a 150 MA with AS killed me (wearing pred). So, I'd have to recommend at LEAST getting a bow. For pvp there are three options for hud: 1 offence hud (30 aao, 50 add dmg) will help cap AS, and land attacks. There is also combat hud: 40? MA skill/40 bow skill. Good for doing more damage with fists, landing perks etc. The last item is the tried and true Targetting scope. use the spreadsheet me and rulz made to figure out how much AS he needs to cap AS.

If he has low NR, he really needs to sort out his MA special attacks. Against MP he should be starting with dof and UWOS, and follow it directly with the LE nano that reduces MP nanoskill by 750 points. Then you won't nuke him. He has to be refreshing that every 20 seconds or so.

Then he need to go directly into offense. I've killed MP's by killing their heal pet, then killing them, also by killing them regardless of heal pet. Mezz pet shouldn't be an issue, since MA should be perked fully into unstunnable. It is important that MA finish the MP quickly, because the stupid dragon thingy can hit pretty hard and land dots on you. Dots kill you more than anything else. If MP has AS, you have to kill faster, if MP has shield, you have to kill his supports. MP is funny, because you have to look at his equipment to figure out how to kill him.

If he's 2HB, just brawl, stun, alpha perk and AS, and use flurry of blows for heavens sake. I've killed SO many advies and toughy healers because I finish my alphas with two huge crits hitting for 3k damage (TL7). If he don't have enough IP at TL5, tell him to IPreset matter met and matter creation, BD, NP, and any stupid tradeskills other than CL. Tell him: IP bow and AS, max AS, and look for a bow he can equip without OSB, and (best, with a drain) sapphistic bows are great, dont' need professional. Flabbergaster's are great, I had one in my shop, but I dunno, it didn't sell. Most MA's don't go full pvp that early, the only one I know is Leduck (sp? I think) he uses sapphistic and flabbergaster.

You don't even need a high QL flabbergaster, so you can keep your Piercing skill down. Just max SA if you want to go that route. Of course, Fast attack is a distant skill. Only IP it if he has extra after those things. you can get a great flurry of blows around QL 150 that take about 500 fast attack (not maxed) which will provide about 25 seconds of higher than normal crit rate, and increase his number of attacks/minute. The only thing to always try to remember is to cast an add damg buff on yourself before you try a AS SA. The add dmg REALLY helps in capping damage and can be the difference betweena puny (100-200 dmg) AS and a 1500-2500dmg one. Same with SA.

If he's anything like me, tell him to make his evades good (which is easy, max skill, best symb/feet imps (QL 230-240ish imp is good)- but recommend enduring feet symb because it has like 40 MA skill. then perk cib, acrobat, use all armour that either gives excelllent evades or AR/evades, then use alien beacon, and defensive augmentation hud, offensve augmentation hud, a good Com relay, and a scope/combat hud. He should be fine.


A good TL 5 MA should kill a MP in about 60 seconds. MA fights longer than 60 seconds means he doesn't have the offensive capabilities needed to finish the toon with the exception of opponents enf and sold.
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Forcenum »

Atm he is in ql 180+ symbs exept a few slots that where very expensive. Havent gotten around to make som implants for those spots yet, so there he has some ql 150ish symbs. He is in full Apocalypse armor with ql 250ish sureshot glasses, Perf alien tank and sandy goo bracers. Also wearing collar from CoH atm, since we havent done missions for tokens yet.

Just won a empy alien device from sec10, to make one there for more AR. other then that its alien reflex mod, beacon and battery in hud.

Guess ofab sleeves and pants will help. and 1k meritboard. He has plenty spare ip atm, so i think we can equip both a bow and a flabber if we wish.

Ill work on more AR i guess, and yes, flurry sounds clever.
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Syn_captian »

:/ I am gonna have to disagree with what you said about MA's using claws and all that at 150..mostly because the dmg you do with any weapon at that level will never come close to matching the damage you can do with your fists. Especially not if you have mass critz (if you do your twink right you could easily get over 60% crits at 150 self) As far as stat's goes, my MA does really well i think, im still in the processes of finishing him, but when im done im gonna have about 1800 AR, over 1500 evades w/o perks running and about 530ish AAD... meaning...critz for over 5k, never getting hit, and completely ownsaucing your opponent, both in PVM And PVP. Soloing, i can solo half of the S10 mid boss, and the best person ive killed in pvp would either be skoggshuggaro (170? enfo) or deathsrow(170? advy)

Also, as far as AS and SA go for 150, dont even worry about them, the 150's that use those can do 2 great hits real quick! but whats the good of doing it if their skills suffer so bad that after they do it they either cant hit you or have terrible evades so you rape them in about 2 secs. It's only worth using bow and flabber at 165+ b/c the ip's just not there at 150

Biggest thing i think icould tell you about making your toon the best he can be:
1.) learn how to time all your stuff really well
2.) Dont get nuts and think you suck because you lost to someone thats the same lvl as you (if it's hai guyz, just pass it off as they sploited even if they didnt =P)
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by noobas »

HI Captian!

The debate about the claws appears to be ongoing. Here are the basics of the argument:
Pro's
1. at low levels, twinking a claw on will result in higher damage normal hits and crits.
2. On RK mobs with low AC they have a large max and decent crit.
3. More attacks/minute = higher damage overall.
4. With loads of add damage items and buffs they can do loads of damage.
5. They add to evades
6. More chances to land procs
7. If you are fully perked into Disharmony, you're healing and and doing a small drain on ~30 hits a minute for a 100(?) point heal. 100*30=3000 extra hp/minute that you don't have to do ANYTHING to get.

Cons
1. You can't pvp with them very well due to split AR.
2. at higher levels when you could self them, they wouldn't likely be as effective as straight fist.
3. with more attacks per minute, the percentage of attacks made by fist would be less (33% vs 100%) and if the claws are doing less damage, then your damage will suffer.
4. with loads of MA skill but small add damage modifiers, they will suck.


The ONLY reason for using claws at 150 is the number of hits per minute increases enough to offset the amount of damage lost by slightly lower damage. You only need to be hitting for 1350 (2000) (average) normal hits with the claw to make it worth while, if you are hitting for 2000 (3500) with fist. Because of the number of attacks, to match damage you only need to be hitting for ~70% of the damage of the combined MA attack to make damage equal. Thats why the claws are better. It SEEMS like youre doing less damage because the numbers are lower, but, in reality the number of attacks offsets the lower damage.

For a full blown PVM MA, with high add dmg and disharmony, two claws >>>>>>>>>>> fist.
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Syn_captian »

Your assumption on how much dmg you do with fists as a 150 twink ma are way off, im missing a lot of ar cuz of the 5 peices of armor im missing and normally i do about 2.5-2.7k normal hits with 4.5+k critz and on top of that, im 1/1 in full D and have yet to be od'd by ANY profession in S10 (except for a soldier who was only top DD b/c he was ranged and never assisted.)

And as for disharmony, i dont agree with using that either unless your going for nothing but max dmg output, it gimps your other skillz and only gives you a small heal ever once in a while. While it may seem a lot at lower lvls, it's only usefull if your gonna max it which can only be done at 210+. Compaired to the other perks you get at 150 and thier usefullness, it's a second rate perkline.

Also, even if they did more dmg PVM, it seems like the person who is making the toon wants to be more PVE than anything thus making fists more usefull until/if they lvl to being able to use shen sticks.

And with the MA attacks, imo they are not meant for dealing dmg, they are meant for other things, such as healing with tree of enlightnement which gives you a use for dimach that doesnt have a 30 min recharge, or UWOS which isn't only for breaking roots but adding mass amounts to your NR which, if you hit yourself with aegis of stone right after is a sexy combo!, or BBCS for stunning those pesky mobs/people who run/heal or to give your tank a chance to heal, and ofc Flower of life which isnt just for healing your self but is a -to AAD for those annoying evade profs you cant land perks on or when your soloing and need that extra heal.

If you put the best claw you can in the damage calculator and even pump up the skills needed to use to 1500, and go full agg. you get this:

Your critical hit will be 1898 points.
Your normal hits will vary between 190 and 473 points.
Over 10 seconds you would do about 7215 points of damage.
You would score 2 normal, and 3 critical hits.
The damage done by normal attacks would be 6358 points and 857 points would be special attacks.

That's also with a 60% chance to crit, which is virtually nothing compaired to my fists!
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Sookie »

I just want to know how the heck you all figure this stuff out? It's just wicked how much information you all have and GTZ on having, reading, learning, & sharing the information. =D> I got 2 accounts and not one uber or even partial uber toon. If I had your skillz I'd RAWK! nice thoughts and information. I want ONE uber toon#-o
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Syn_captian »

As far as the damage for the claws, that's on www.Auno.org. All the rest is from me actually playing a TL 5 twink MA.
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by noobas »

Ok, Youre missing the point of the argument. The point is for max damage and usefulness in PVM. NOT PVP. *** To all readers: this setup WILL gimp you in pvp***

First a concession: yes, disharmony has the potential to gimp your other skills at low levels, and yes, youre right, it only lands sometimes. HOWEVER, it actually lands about 80% of the time, which, if you calculate how many hits you get per minute, results in a WAY higher heal rate than your BEST heal perk. Furthermore, it adds a lot of add damage.

some other points:

1. You don't hit at 1-1 at full defence. Ma's Cap their attack at about 1.5-1.5 I have other 2400 phys init, so trust me I'm acutely aware of this.
2. you didn't enter the inputs correctly on the Auno damage calculator. You will be hitting for way more than 473 dmg. first off, on a hazangerine bear claw the dmg range is like 40-330 I think, so the BARE minimum you'll be hitting for with 1500 Ma skill is about 600, but with the add damage count:
1000 token board 35
Dchest 42
motr 34
barrow strength 15
6 piece CM QL 200 42
aug hud 15
combat hud 3 75
dmg buff 63
aura magnifacation 25
2* arul saba 2*38
symb 25
full disharmony 60

507 add dmg.

you going to gain 507*(40dpm-30dpm) = 5070 dmg per minute increase JUST by having 40 attacks instead of 30, on Add dmg dmg- (hence, not including the wepon dmg).


I know you can do good damage with fist and brawl.. I do it myself. But just for reference: at 220, I do over double the damage on crits on fist as I do with a shen stick... DOUBLE!!!!!!
So why do MA's with shen stick OD a MA with no shen?
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Syn_captian »

ok, yeah, i didnt add in the + dmg bonuses

Hazangerine Bear Claw
Your critical hit will be 2405 points.
Your normal hits will vary between 697 and 980 points.
Over 10 seconds you would do about 10102 points of damage.
You would score 2 normal, and 3 critical hits.
The damage done by normal attacks would be 8893 points and 1209 points would be special attacks.

With me:

Crit ill say is 4.5k
Normal hits 800-2.7k
(with what you say at 1.5/1.5) = 3 normal attacks in 10 secs, assuming i have a 60% crit rating thats about 2 crits. so, min dmg would be 9800, max would be 11700. If you take the average of both you would get about 10750 d/10s
not to mention a brawl (has too goofy of a min/max dmg to actually say what it could be unless it crits)

**note, im missing 3 pieces of CC and 2x IGOC's + my crit rating is a lil more than 60% AND this isnt adding in shoulderpad buff or dmg buff or Disharmony perked(all these things would prolly put me at over 5k crits)**

in conclusion, if you do your self right fists>claws (PS shen sticks do more dmg b/c not only are the quicker, but they have great min dmg+great max dmg+great crits)
Not to say that the claws arent better on lower lvls (120-) but once you get to a certain lvl, the claws are nothing more than an IP drain.

Also:
The ones i have as my information are educated guesses, i took the lowest dmg that i have ever seen me do and i took a usual dmg that i normally see me crit for/do. (most ive ever done was over 5k but i had hardcore ob's)
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by noobas »

Ok. So thats what I was expecting.

I figured that Fists> claws at about level 120-130 damage wise. but, it's a lot closer than you'd think with a lot of add dmg, and, when youre fighitng mobs, sometimes you don't want to heal,

claws+ disharmony is like Q. afk win. because of the constant healing.

two more things, 1 UWOS+ aegis doesn't work to get a bonus, cuz aegis only adds to BASE Nr.

and claws isn't a IP sink, because it's piercing, and it's assuming that you might take off your claws, and use a flabbergaster/bow for pvp.

Claws aren't for everyone, I only meant to point out that they would have pretty excellent damage even up to 150ish, And are an excellent way to augment your healing AND, because 66% of the attacks you do are less dependant on MA skill, you could still do great damage even if you aren't twinked. (especially at levels 40-140ish)

If you go to SL, and fight hecks, take off the claws though.
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Syn_captian »

yeah, never thought of it that way.

more attacks=more times disharmony procs=more health healed!

also, not entirely sure if it overrides weapons dmg too, but couldnt you just buff your self with sorrowful toad and keep on your claws for hecks?
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Re: MA Weapons

Post by Rulzern »

Atleast one of you is butching the calcs to a severe extent.

The _point_ of the MA weapons is that you gain combined attack, you don't replace your fists with 2x claws, you sacrifice some fist hits for more total hits, the claws _will_ do less damage than your fists, no matter what, but your _total_ damage should rise.

Alright, first of all, the numbers you're giving leads me to assume that you have somewhere around 1550-1600 MA skill, with ~200 add damage captian, is that correct?

If you're 1.5/1 (the MA weapon increases recharge and attack at the same rate, correct?), I'm coming up with these calcs (60% crit):

Mob with 0 ACs:
-Fists: 800-2700(4500)
-Claw: 397-680(2105)
-Hits per minute for fist: 24
-Hits per minute for fist+2x claws: ~37
-Average fist damage: 0.4*1750+0.6*4500 = 3400
-Average claw damage: 0.4*878.5+0.6*2105 = 1614.4

Damage per minute:
Fists: 3400*24 = 81600
Fists + claw: 3400*12+1614.4*25 = 40800+40360 = 81160

Amount of add damage needed for them to be equal on a 0-AC opponent: 200+440/13 = 234

In a min damage situation:
Fists: 800-800(2600)
Claw: 397-397(1800)
Average fist damage: 0.4*800+0.6*2600 = 1880
Average claw damage: 0.4*397+0.6*1800 = 1238.8

DPM:
Fists: 1880*24 = 45120
Fists + claws: 1880*12+1238.8*25 = 53530

Amount of add damage needed for them to be equal in a min-damage situation: 200-8410/13 = -447

Help me out here guys, I'm having a real hard time figuring out how you're coming to the conclusion that fists are better damage than claws at 150.

Yes they're useless in PvP, we all agree on that, that isn't what this discussion is about.

Also, disharmony is kinda crap at this level it seems, you get 49 HP every time it procs, it procs ~6.72 times per minute for fists, and 10.36 times per minute with fists+claws, healing you for a grand total of 178.36 HP more with claws than fists, is this correct?
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Re: MA Weapons

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RRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRR

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