doc weapon

A place to discuss and compare items, armors, weapons, etc., and see how to combine them
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Hyde
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Hyde »

noobas wrote:I'm particulary interested for the sake of my TL5 gunna-be twink doc.

159 atm, but thinking of weap/armour choices for 165
Best PVP TL5 doc pvp weapons are still:

* Ithaca Snakemaster
* Arbalest
* Superior Sapphistic Bow
* Zastaba rifle

(in other words, the weapons that were doc TL7 prime choices until recently)

For me it would be in that order, too. You probably won't cap AS recharge on the Snakemaster, but it hits hard and you get the most normal AR from shotgun/MA/pistol as a doc ... so you'll get some regular hits in with it.

Arbalest will have the lowest AR of all the above but you will cap AS recharge on it. However it is expensive.

Bow is a good "easy on the IP" choice and has a fast swap if you want to try and do some melee specials.

Zastaba is easiest to cap AS recharge on and will have almost as high of AR as the Bow, but it hits lightest.


Best PVM TL5 doc weapon is a Massive Bolt Charger. (in other words, the weapon that was doc TL7 prime choice until recently)


My point with the () comments btw is just that doc weapons are MUCH better today at TL7. We used to go from TL5 to 220 without much weapon improvement.

PS. At TL7 there is NOT a good "PVM+PVP" option. Massive Bolt Charger can be used in PVP but you'll miss over 1/2 the people. Arbalest is probably the best PVM option out of those listed due to slightly better min dmg and the fact that mobs don't need insane AR to hit @ TL5 ... but overall expect to make a choice on PvM or PVP.

PPS. I obviously didn't see Rulz's message before I posted mine. Pretty much same concepts.
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Hyde
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Hyde »

Alphacenta wrote:Rifles (as in Kyr'Ozch/OFAB) won't be recharge capped by doctors. Kyr has 2s recharge, ofab 1.7s.

Ofab Tiger would be better than Cobra anyway as higher critdamage, faster recharge, supported by symbs..
Supported by symbs is a bit of a joke on bow. Its in -1- symb. And docs don't get access to alot of the +bow items that other classes get. Which means once you add up OSBs and trickledown you can get slightly higher rifle than bow on most docs.

I agree with you that it's better for a doc though for the same reasons (crit, recharge). Even though you can't twink bow as high its negligible.

I know I could self a 11sec AS on a 220 doc with the Snakemaster, which is 1.5. So I'd bet a doc could self 11sec on a 1.6 weapon like the Tiger. I'm not sure if Joe was getting 11sec with his Ofab shotty or slightly higher but it was close. Getting 11sec AS on a 1.7 weapon would require OSBs.
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noobas
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Re: doc weapon

Post by noobas »

Right now it's all conceptual, money won't be a problem, I mean, as long as we're not talking about a 2B+ setup...

So the things I'm considering are:

1. hp - want more hp than the enf I'm dueling
2. Nano skills - how important are they?
3. AS - need to cap a decent AS without a scope (preferably)
4. AR - is there any point?
5. Min dmg - if I can get an AR thats even remotely decent, then I would sacrifice a high AS/crit for higher min dmg.
6. So: taking into account 4. and 5. Say for example, I go full melee, MA for example, and use claws or other, plus all the other items usuable by a MA, ie. blessed with thunder, flower of life, etc. These are very good items to be using, ESPECIALY if you consider that most profs at TL5 will have to fight full agg, to counter UBT/muscular malaise, wrack+ruin, etc. In which case, landing FOL will bring their evades down further, and making them susceptible to normal attacks.

Also, I think I can get the highest AR with MA, right hand support symb has MA, left hand I can use MA, and feet symb only loses bright cluster on support foot. Plus, CM is a great armour for doc, with hp and AR. just have to switch up a few things to get better cost.

Reasons for not needing AS: evades profs die of dots, not wep dmg. advy is only exception, but with melee attacks for interupt and UBT'd probably will have a hard time getting off big heals, and can probably outlast without a problem.

So: MA skill based AR, with three attacks with hazangerine bearclaws, FOL and other MA attacks (bbcs prof locked?)

Hyde, Rulz: please tear me apart!
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Hyde
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Hyde »

noobas wrote: Reasons for not needing AS: evades profs die of dots, not wep dmg. advy is only exception, but with melee attacks for interupt and UBT'd probably will have a hard time getting off big heals, and can probably outlast without a problem.
I suggest you go really look at the TL5 DoTs ... nothing dies to those. You'd be better off not IP'ing MC and maxing AS than having DoTs without AS.

DoTs are almost useless in Doc PvP except to annoy people who are close to dying from something else until around 215.
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Re: doc weapon

Post by noobas »

good point
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Rulzern »

The DoTs at TL5 WILL kill fixers, maybe not the DoTs alone, but when you combine triple-DoTing with nuking, fixers will die eventually.

I'm not sure if you'll have enough AR to hit anyone reliably with MA. Sure, you'll get less AR with shotgun, but who (at TL5) have duck exp twinked anywhere near as much as dodge/evade?

To do a rundown of the profs that can be a problem at TL5:
MAs - Ev0l alpha if they hotswap, I don't have enough HP to survive the good ones at all
Agents - Another ev0l alpha, if you can survive alpha and UBT them, they're easy (IF you can survive the alpha :p)
Enforcers - Big alpha, but with enough HP they're easy
Doctors - The only ones that can be a problem are docs with freak str + AS (for me)
Traders - /fail, no way to kill them
Keepers - Easymode, alpha is smallish, can have nice evades, but once you've got them UBTd they're not that big of problem
Bureaucrats - UBT/Decrep pets, UBT the crat, have enough HP to survive for 15 seconds of them shooting at you without heals, use the HoT
Soldiers - The ones that don't use/can't land OFiTG are easy, scare them into TMSing early to win
Fixers - Probably the easiest prof to kill, UBT, DoT and nuke, you'll most likely barely have to heal at all
Adventurers - Can't kill the good ones, can survive with lots of HP
MPs - Haven't met any good PvP MPs at TL5, the ones I've fought all die too fast to be a threat
Engineers - Haha.
NTs - Can be a problem if they can make you unable to CH with debuffs, otherwise easy
Shades - Haven't fought many of them, but I assume they have heavy alpha power (?)

Take that list for what it is, which is a recounting of my (limited) TL5 PvP experience with my (gimpy) MBC doc. The real advantage I can see from going with an arbalest instead of an MBC for me in PvP is that I can dedicate a lot more perks and items towards HP rather than keeping the MBC 100% for PvM.
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noobas
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Re: doc weapon

Post by noobas »

yea. I'm thinking arlabest or snakemaster.

I have a QL 199 one on my trader, and it's got a nice crit on it.

The one problem I see is that +dmg is good for capping AS, which is ultimately what you want.

I see docs hitting my keeper for 57 dmg fling shot, regular hit, though, which scares me... That min dmg on those guns really doesn't do any good. so you need a lot of add dmg for it to be of use.

that and getting AS capped. I'd settle for a lower AS for more min dmg. seems that normal hits often land on toons even with crazy evades.
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Re: doc weapon

Post by perky »

Welcome to the fun world of Tl5 pvp on a doc, it can be fun as well as frustrating all the time :)

(Warning: Wall of text inc...)

Since I've had a tl5 pvp doc for about two years now, I feel that I got lots to add to what the others have said, and I'll start with the evaluation of the weapon, as this choice might define whatever setup you'd like for your toon.

As for weapon choice, picking a weapon just to archive for example 11 sec AS without thinking about the rest of your setup i'd say is mildly stupid. All the choices of weapons that are listed here are nice for pvp, and I've personally tried out 3 of them over a longer period.

Zastaba:

+ Easy to cap As recharge, can implant rifle instead of AS in right wrist and still have 11 sec AS, will give you some higher attack rating too. Projectile damage, means it's supported by rbp and imps.

- You won't get on a QL 160+ without sacrificing either AS skill or hp/nano/nano cost etc from using supple or css instead of paramedic/ofab/reactive

If you can live with having some lower HP and nanoresist and want a setup which is easy to get nice AR and 11 sec AS with osb's, I'd definitively go with rifle. If you triple plant rifle, you can have around 1.2k ar with UA, meaning you will perk most non-evaders.


Arbalest:

+ Semi-easy to cap As recharge (caps with TTS), high max damage, decent reg hits if you can hit non-evaders with it.
- Low Ar due to split skills (66% rifle, 33% bow), a challenge to keep an 150 out of oe if you don't have a ransack tower. Cold damage, which isn't buffed by rbp/imps/symbs etc.

You have to triple imp AS for this weapon to be at it maximum effect, as well as using cold dmg aruls and you'd want to get ua/tts for mass pvp situations. AS caps a lot of professions, but the low ar means you will not perk a decent non-evader twink even, making our already semi-crappy damage even worse.


Snakemaster:

+ Fling shot, checks duck exp, adds evades, again projectile damage which is supported by rbp/symbs etc
- In no way possible to archive 11 sec As recharge at tl5, min damage is totally f*cked, and the weapon is relying on crits to a certain degree

Since you can double imp shotgun, the Ar you can get with this weapon is pretty high for a tl5 doc. Its lack of fast recharging AS defines your playing style to more outlasting then trying to play an agent with only AS and no perks. This weapon is better used for its evades if you are in a dodge setup (more about this later on) and possible AR high enough to perk people with nano feast. Since your will look at an AS recharge of at least 20 seconds, you might just as well drop AS in right wrist and go with a symb there instead, giving you some 50ish more NR then what you'd have with other AS gun setup.


As you can see, getting the fastest AS recharge isn't always what benefits best for a tl5, but I'll go thru the various setups I have tried over the time on my doc and evaluate their effiency both in mass pvp situations and duels/random ganking.

NR setup with arbalest:

This was the first setup I tried for my doc, a QL 147 arbalest coupled with NR1 perked.
The pro's of the setup is obvious: you got a fast recharging AS and NR that the most persistant twinks will give up to get something thru (even if roots/snares/ubt lands if they are spammed).

The cons are that you won't have very high HP selfbuffed, even with towers. I think I had just shy of 11k hp fully buffed with HP perked, which means you will be alphafood easily for serveral professions.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=118285 is about the setup I had when I tried this setup.



HP setup with arbalest:

After realizing that my nanoskill setup didn't really do much good since everything that could be spammed landed anyways, and I could never land the zap nano on good twinks anyways, I tried to make a sensible hp setup with arbalest. It worked well, landing me at around 13.4k hp, but still making the best twinks able to alpha me since I didn't really have the def to support this high HP as perks could cap and a few too many would reliable crit me.

Still, for mass pvp this setup worked out really well as I'd run around with close to 15k with osb's and rrfe, being a very hard target to bring down.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=118288 was the setup I was using at that time.



HP/Dodge setup with arbalest:

This setup is the one I'm currently using, focusing mostly around dodge ranged, aad and HP. Weapon is still arbalest, and even if I'm more def setup now, I still have enough skills to cap recharge with TTS. Having maxed dodge ranged, combined with a good amount of aad and using wrack & ruin for draining 100 Ar from your oponent, I rarely see FAs and burst capping anymore, I won't get perked by everyone and their grandmother if they're ranged and this have made my survivability substancional better.

Tho, I still miss having high enough AR to perk non-nr twinks and evaders with nano feast, mistreatment etc due to arbalest being split ar, and to keep the 150 arbalest out of OE, I need a 120+ ransacking tower.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=118289 - Setup I'm using atm.

Note to the setup, I swap various helmets including upgraded gph, reactive helmet, pointed hood, chest I swap between dchest/reactive/shapeshifter vest, pants between reactive/dalja skirt etc. Even rings I swap out from time to time.


HP/Dodge setup with snakemaster.

I am reperking at the moment to put on shottie instead of arbalest and to swap some of my implants and symbiants around. The goal of this setup is to gain even more defense from snakemaster, add in a 6 second fling shot with possible proc/crit chance and to get back some of my NR that I now lose in right wrist.

I also hope this setup will give me more powerful offence due to the added projectile damage from rbp/dchest etc.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=118290 is the setup I plan on using. For perks, you'd better shoot me a tell ingame and I'll tell you what I plan on using and why I'm planning on that.

If you got any questions, just bring them on, either here or ingame :)

Perky
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noobas
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Re: doc weapon

Post by noobas »

Wow dude.

Sick post. <3 the txt wlls

so my style. Ok, I'll have to check out the setups while I'm not at work. (can't see auno on work comp.. network admins ftl.

got a Q though: why do dodge ranged instead of evade close? If it's only to be able to dodge a few bullets on burst or FA, I see why you do it. If it's because melee crit/cap scale is different I see that too, but melee is so damn annoying for interupts?

Or do you ALWAYS use a 99% interupt deck thingy?

Thanks for the info, it was so good to read about the different setups with an expanation of their benefits.
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Alphacenta »

@Noobas:

Dodge means gimp agents can't perk you much I guess. Dodge means FA/burst dodging at times.

Evade means, umm, nothing. And if you're fighting a good twink just run in circles and you avoid just as much (if not more) damage as if you would stand toe to toe and twinked evade.
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noobas
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Re: doc weapon

Post by noobas »

damn straight... I was thinking about why a doc would try to evade melee, and the only reason I could think of would be to reduce the interupt.

But, if you use 99% interupt thingy, then theres no need.

It's funny, because on my doc I raised evade close, so that I could dodge the interupts.. LOL

I'm so gimp. thats ok, when I get to level 165 I'll do a IPR and sort my crap out fareal.
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Alphacenta »

Interrupts will happen anyway, getting "some" evade isn't gonna change that.

Only time you will actually need that interrupt thing is when fighting a MA with red dusk. Rest of the time? Waste of NCU (and cost/range if you need NCU there to fit your buffs with a interrupt thingie).
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Re: doc weapon

Post by Rulzern »

What interrupts? The only non-instacast nano you'll use at TL5 is the C DoT.

It's also worth noting that the difference in how much you'll be evaded when using a weapon that checks duck and one that checks dodge is pretty significant (when talking about regular hits). So that's something to keep in mind when looking at the shotty weapon options.
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Re: doc weapon

Post by perky »

The reason TL5 docs used to IP evade/duck was indeed to avoid crits since everything but C dot and drain resist are insta-cast even at full def. With the introduction of spirit infused yutto mems, you get at least 3% crit decrease from those, adding up as 6% effective crit resist vs scopes etc since your chance to land a crit is halved in pvp.

The reason I'm focusing on dodge on my doc is for the first that we got so much more +dodge items (ofab sleeves, dalja skirt, dolphin spine ring) and it doesn't interfer with +hp items that much. My doc got ~1500 static def vs dodge, increasing if I use wrack & ruin in conjunction with blinds on the target I'm fighting, which means he's most likely not to perk me with other perks then AI perks. Getting such high def vs evade close isn't just effective enough as most melee classes run around with way higher AR then ranged profs at tl5 with the exception of soldiers.

Again, for interruption, the only case you should really worry about getting your CH interruped is in a fight vs a MA who use flower of life on you, which debuffs your nano init by a fair amount. I usually swap range increaser for interrupt decrease when duelling MA's.

Btw, if anyone are interrested, I can make a post with my experiences doing duels vs the other professions.
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