Booster, Eng. Mines, Instanced org cities, Profs. Rebalance

[Alphacenta]

Before you go Silly! again.. the whole point of the forums is discussion. If you don't agree, you tend to discuss, and that's not silly.

hahaha, who can kill a good doc?

Shades, agents(I think), crats(with quite a bit of luck), MAs(I think), traders, dunno about MPs.

The "regular" TL7 PvP profs can't kill good TL7 docs, that doesn't mean people can't.

For the record, agents can only do it with hotswap setups. To get a decent chance of killing one, you'll need a M150/PE swap that's very hard on your IP.. And that will suck without the setup to back it up, that means add damage crits and AR.

With only my rifle/perks I won't get a half decent doc down, not even if I have them UBTed for real first (UBT them three times within one minute). Not even if I swap off my Rifle and toss in a Dimach in the middle of my alpha.

Also lup, agents _are_ an above-average PvP prof, TL2 to TL6 they are among the best, and at TL7 they are average, compare that to other profs, who generally have a much shorter (if any) span of levels where they are good (personal view from inconclusive data, I know you don't agree, just illustrating a point, you don't have to tell me how wrong I am or why):

Does it matter, in the end, how good you do at TL1-6? To justify how good you do at TL7? Hell traders used to suck donkey balls in TL7 pvp, pre-LE. But they were ruling TL1-5 alright. Did that justify TL7 traders sucking? Absolutely not.

Anyway, that was a long rant, my point is; balancing by numbers isn't retarded, it will most likely work a ton better than asking the PvP crowd what they feel, since the entry requirements for joining the PvP crowd is out of the reach of most people.

Don't you think that PvP should be balanced around, well, PvPers? And then more specifically, the ones that know what they're doing?

For example there are lots of noob engineers that splat in seconds when they pvp. That can't touch my agent. Then there are engineers like Karstasbiatc, Tehevolz, Dongjr2, Blazebot, Feble, Brainwash. That sort of engineer LITERALLY rips me a new one. I can't even TOUCH them, and I mean really really not. On top of that they've got a cute instant nanopool depletion (which can be complimented with Ring of Sister Merciless), and pet snares that as of last patch actually work and don't break much at all. So they can usually show me the way to reclaim in under 30 seconds unless I've specifically setup to fight an engineer. But it's still a losing fight then, I can't kill them, it just takes them a little longer to kill me.

Does the fact that MOST engineers can't kill me, mean engineers need love in PvP? HELL no.

For example there are lots of noob agents that splat to an enf even when they kite. I can, on the other hand, go toe to toe with almost ANY enf and have the potential to win. In some cases without breaking a sweat, in some cases it takes a LOAD of effort and then it still isn't certain. But does that mean agents need love against enfs? Absolutely not.

Just like Noobas said. Some enfs he can stomp down like a fat kid. Just like I can toe to toe some enfs with a thumb up my ass and still win. But some enfs will kill him 8-9 out of 10 duels, if he does his best effort. The same goes for me, if I'm dueling Forz he'll win most of the time unless I have a really good day and timing. I'm a "studier" and so is Forz.. so it's a damn nice fight. Forz being an expert at alphaing healers. Me being an expert at surviving the craziest alphas. Complements eachother, and you NEVER get the same fight twice because Forz has a new trick up his sleeve EVERY time you fight him.

Balancing PvP around PvMers is stupid. Just like balancing by numbers, since you will be catching a lot of noobs in there that will turn the actual balance upside down.

[Rulzern]

I beleive I didn't make myself clear enough, the reason I said what I said, with the whole silly thing, is that discussing why I'm wrong in my list is _completely_ missing my point!

The thing is, the PvP picture changes so drastically for most people between the levels that it's impossible to say anything conclusive about a prof in PvP without having some predetermined information.

This was my point, if you say "Prof X sucks in PvP!", you might be right at a certain level with certain equipment, but wrong at other levels or other equipment (perhaps more supported equipment).

Don't you think that PvP should be balanced around, well, PvPers? And then more specifically, the ones that know what they're doing?

In short, no.

If you balance the profs around the (let's say) 2 top PvPers of each prof, you will have massive inconsistencies in what _kind_ of setup they use, all of them will have sacrificed most of the things valued in PvM to be able to function in PvP, some profs have to sacrifice more than others, some profs require 1 month to get the equipment to do good in PvP, some profs require 1 year; this may not matter to _you_, but it does matter for the majority of the players of AO, who can't afford a full set of alien armor, who won't be able to get on 300 symbs, who can't afford notucomm, who can't/won't sacrifice their PvM viability for their PvP viability. Look at what profs use an "intended" weapon line in PvP, and what the difference between a PvP and a PvM setup. For some profs, they can just about use their regular "gimp" PvM setup and do OK in PvP, while others need to change huge parts of their setup to do OK. I think this should factor into the balance discussion, while I agree that this _could_ lead to silly OP profs, so would balancing around the top PvPers from each prof, with one requiring leveling to 220 as the only effort, and another requiring years of work after getting to 220 to be viable; and this is _only_ talking about profs at endgame!

I don't envy the devs their jobs with balancing, it's a really hard problem to solve.

So yeah, that's what I was trying to twist the discussion into, to avoid the whole "my prof r t3h nurfazt!" "no mine!" thing these discussions often turn into.

[Alphacenta]

I beleive I didn't make myself clear enough, the reason I said what I said, with the whole silly thing, is that discussing why I'm wrong in my list is _completely_ missing my point!

I did pick up the point, and I did reply to your point rather than your list.

The thing is, the PvP picture changes so drastically for most people between the levels that it's impossible to say anything conclusive about a prof in PvP without having some predetermined information.

This was my point, if you say "Prof X sucks in PvP!", you might be right at a certain level with certain equipment, but wrong at other levels or other equipment (perhaps more supported equipment).

Most peoples don't just say prof X sucks in PvP, or prof X is overpowered in PvP, they add a level range too. These things can be adjusted. For example while the new DB nanos do not AT ALL affect TL5 pvp, they make a world of difference at TL7. Also level locks can be added to extremely overpowered nanos like for example Nanite drains pre-TL5. NR/evade/AR/etc items/perks/nanos can be brought into the game to balance things out. Et cetera.

The certain equipment doesn't even come into play. Some profs at certain level ranges can't beat a certain other prof in that level range, no matter what setup they stick to.

An example here is TL7 agent vs TL7 engineer: Defense setup fails, can't get enough defense. Offense setup fails, splats too fast and can't kill the engineer before they die themselves. Gank setup fails, blockers suck it all up. NR setup fails, then they can't even UBT the pets and it doesn't fix the problem they had in the first place.

Another example why that is stupid: put a twink fixer up against a twink NT. At pretty much every level the NT is going to rip the fixer a new one unless they're doing something horribly wrong. Yeah the fixer can perk NR8. But do you really think that'd be viable?

Moral of the story. You can do "precision" nerfs or loving targeting only certain level ranges/profs. Sometimes these things are needed.

Using "BUT at a different level range they pwn!1!!!!" as a justification for HUGE imbalance on one certain level is, for the lack of a better word, retarded. Sorry.

Don't you think that PvP should be balanced around, well, PvPers? And then more specifically, the ones that know what they're doing?

In short, no.

If you balance the profs around the (let's say) 2 top PvPers of each prof, you will have massive inconsistencies in what _kind_ of setup they use, all of them will have sacrificed most of the things valued in PvM to be able to function in PvP, some profs have to sacrifice more than others, some profs require 1 month to get the equipment to do good in PvP, some profs require 1 year; this may not matter to _you_, but it does matter for the majority of the players of AO, who can't afford a full set of alien armor, who won't be able to get on 300 symbs, who can't afford notucomm, who can't/won't sacrifice their PvM viability for their PvP viability. Look at what profs use an "intended" weapon line in PvP, and what the difference between a PvP and a PvM setup. For some profs, they can just about use their regular "gimp" PvM setup and do OK in PvP, while others need to change huge parts of their setup to do OK. I think this should factor into the balance discussion, while I agree that this _could_ lead to silly OP profs, so would balancing around the top PvPers from each prof, with one requiring leveling to 220 as the only effort, and another requiring years of work after getting to 220 to be viable; and this is _only_ talking about profs at endgame!

There is no, I repeat, no profession that becomes TOTALLY gimped in PvM the moment they setup for PvP.. yeah, some professions perform better than others, but none is completely worthless. On the other hand, some professions become TOTALLY gimped in PvP the moment they setup *purely* for PvM. That is their choice.

Also worth mentioning is that some pure PvP setups are performing *better* at surviving in PvM than the standard PvM damage dishing setup.

Look let me say this a bit clearer. PvMers are exactly what they are - PvMers. They made a choice. If they want to perform optimally in PvM (by dishing out huge loads of damage, like for example DD setup docs a la Rackie/Mylady) and are willing to give up every form of PvP performance to do so, so be it, fine. Let them have their uber PvM performance, I certainly won't stop them.

But don't expect to do anything but hit the floor really really fast when you go up against a good PvPer, in PvP setup. You made a choice, you suffer the consequences. I don't expect to outdamage everyone and their dog either in PvM, because I'm a PvP setup.

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Anyway, these PvPers don't even have to be the top of the line. Yes your equip matters. But trust me when I say that HOW you play your toon makes a lot of difference too. I've in the past (before I was 220 and went all out defense) lost several duels against a rather gimpy L214 soldier. At that same level, in the same equip, I was beating some endgame setup 220 soldiers!

What has to be kept in mind too is that OF COURSE you can't balance around TWO PvPers. You take a lot of PvPers, and chuck them together with a lot of others and see what happens.

As for levelling to 220 being the only thing you need to do to perform good in TL7 PvP, we both know that's not true. If I put a monkey behind my keyboard and managed to make clear which buttons to use for damage, and which for CH, I'm very certain I can still beat them even on a gimp toon.

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No offense, but I think it funny you mention top end PvPers all running around in 300 symbs and full 300 AI armor sets. I have not a single 300 symbiant in and I'm doing great. Forz which is one of the best enfs, had no 300 symbs in until around three months ago yet he was running around killing toons in endgame setups left and right. Sterva on RK1 used to have 240ish symbiants in, he was killing PvPers left and right. Cheyna, one of the best docs, has ~250-270ish symbiants in from what I remember and is ripping 220/30s with full 300 symbs and AI armors and et cetera a new one all the time. None of these toons I mentioned have full AI armor sets. Pretty much goes up for all profs, except for maybe non-trox shades. You can substitute a lot of AI armor with cheaper gear.

Last but not least.. Don't you think it LOGICAL that someone who invested a lot of time in their setup, stands a better chance than someone that just slapped on some ofab and 200 symbs and started PvPing?

[noobas]

All this is just talking around in circles.

I've been thinking about this whole alien armour thing.

I honestly think I could change my MA over into full evade gear.

Try this:
mystical force shirt (45 all)
slippers of screaming (60 all)
ofab sleeves (80 dodge range)
mystical hood (75 NR, 75 dodge range) or
sure shot (80 evade, 80 dodge)
gloves, not sure ? mystical force? even yellow force or CSS?
ofab pants (75 MA, 64 duck)
targetting scope vs MA
green hud for everyone else

that would add: 45+60+80+45 230 evade close
45+60+160+80 345 dodge range
45+60=160 duck

minus: 6 * 15 = 90 aad. and 270 AR.
For sure this is a big loss on AR, but there is some significant gains in evades. Especially dodge range, which is the key, since advies can't perk MA, and MA can't perk MA so only have to worry about docs and enf.

This setup vs keeper would suck though.


I might do this, just for kicks. Most evade profs you can perk, so why bother, so who says I need more AR?

I can use AS/SA dimach for evade profs
and alpha the non evade profs.

[Alphacenta]

270 AR might come in handy when you are fighting that pesky unperkable advy that even has Duckexp maxed, though. Red Dusk kinda helps a lot when fighting healers!

[noobas]

Well it's tricky.

For example, SSOS on a properly set up advy = unperkable no matter what my set up, or my timing, and I can't land fol on him anyway.

Other advies, np.

Ya, of couse that 270 AR will be usefull. And just because I can't perk one advy doesn't mean I'll get rid of it. I was just thinkign about being UBE evasive! It's fun, Already, in BS, I can tank 3-4 toons, provided only 1 of them has AS.... but with more evades it'd be even moar fun.

[Mud]

lol at you all!