ATHEN PALADINS FORUMS (in remaking)

Yep you're right there. I pointed Mop towards the Cooler Master case and PSU because I know for sure that it works: I have the same ones installed right here (well but a 100W heavier PSU). Same deal for memory, I use OCZ and know it works.

Reasoning behind the AMD processor is that AMD is the budget company. For a speed monster I would no doubt choose Intel (like the Intel Core i7 920 I use myself). Also, it should be noted that Socket AM3 has a future - it's AMD's flagship platform and there will be new processors for it. While the Intel Core i5 is Socket 1156, a platform that's dead before it even got off the ground. Intel plans to continue their processors on the older Socket 1366 platform, this is where Intel Core i7 originally started and where Intel Core i9 will be introduced.

512 MB GTS250 cards do exist and also in the shop we put the PC together, however it's just a 10 euro difference from the 1024 MB version. For that little money extra, having double the VRAM "just to be safe" can't hurt I figured. Even if it won't be used 99% of the time.

Anyway, if you compare the 9800GT card with a very similar 250GTS you'll see that the 250GTS is slightly faster, and supports OpenGL 2.1 instead of 2.0. Again it's your choice.

PS: Price of my "solution" could be pushed down by picking just one harddrive instead of two, it's just that Mop wants to do either RAID, VelociRaptor, or SSD.

Comments about the sockets.

First, I agree that the Phenom II X4 9xx generation is a huge step forward for AMD (who needed it) and an excellent series of CPUs, aggressively priced and very competitive. A very good choice. The Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition (out of our price range) even looks like a real bargain compared to the Intel i7 860 (still better but definitely with a way lower quality/price ratio).

Now, regarding sockets and MBs, Intel does much more fundamental research than AMD today, and introduces much more new features and evolutions. The consequence (with pro-active help from the marketing department) is that Intel will change motherboards architecture much more often than AMD: even if the "number" of a socket remains the same, there will be new releases -like 1366-1156a/b/c/whatever- for new CPUs. Some are already announced.

The next big evolution from Intel, the Sandy Brigde (sometimes in 2011), will anyhow (or very likely) require new versions of the MBs although it will be implemented on socket 1156 and 1366 (but new versions of them). On the other hand, the 1366 will welcome the upcoming Core i9, and the 1156 won't. But I doubt Mophro (as 95% of the consumers) will go for an i9 any day soon.

Also, many future improvements over the currents computers, like SATA 3 interface (theoretical 600MB/s speed), will anyhow require to change the motherboards of today, Intel and AMD as well.

This is a pain for someone who wants to have the best of the best, or even "just" extremely high performance systems. If you are at the top or close to the top now, this means that you might have no "room" to improve your system in the future without changing the MB (except the combo i9/1366). The situation will appear sooner with Intel than with AMD, that's all, but it's true that AMD will clearly let you breathe more if you just consider CPUs without considering other evolutions.

But, here, we are dealing with a 600-700 euros system. A very nice machine, but with also a lot of room for evolution with already available CPUs without even considering future models.

Today, there are 3 models (not sure 4) for the 1156 socket above the Core i5 I suggested, up to the Core i7 870 at 2.93GHz/core and 3.6GHz with TurboBoost, 8Mo cache, etc. at something like 470 euros!

Unless Intel discontinues those 3 processors in the next three years, their prices will drop and they will be a more than decent way to upgrade.

Summary: yes AMD will give you more time with the current socket, but for our configuration, there is already room for upgrades.

Mophro, after all that, maybe a summary could help, and a possible final proposal or two to choose from? Want?

Well that was what I intended to do this weekend. What I have in mind now is to go from what Lupus and I made and see if I can integrate some of the stuff Chris proposed to press the price a bit. However I am not quite sure of lowering the price at the cost of the systems performance is what I will want. ...

Tough choices to be made .

Actually my last suggestion increased performance.

To Mophro, additional note.

Context: tonight, Mophro made some tests to compose a system and find out what the final prices could be on the site he will probably order from. http://www.alternate.nl/html/pcbuilder/ ... n=BUILDERS

Mophro suddenly told me that the site displayed an error message when, among various configurations he was trying to associate the Antec Earthwatt 650W power supply I suggested and the graphic car I suggested or the one Alpha suggested (they are close to each other and any will do a good work). The message was that the 12V output on the power supply was not powerful enough to handle the card. I suspected a bug somewhere. (TBH, there are other good power supplies and I don't care if Mophro picks this one or not, but I wanted to understand.)

Finally, I found the answer.

In their products database, some power supplies lack the available power information for the 12V outputs! So when their systems checks the requirements of the card vs the power available... it finds nothing and displays an error message "not enough power".

Several facts corroborate this.

First, the power needed for the card, as they mention it, is 150ish W max. Under 12V, this means the max. amperage would be 12.5A. This amperage is easily delivered by the Antec on any 12V output, as well as by most PSUs of today. (2 ouputs at 22A, and one at 25A for the Antec)

Second, the Antec Earthwatt 650 is Nvidia SLI certified (and this is confirmed by the vendor's site too!). If it's SLI certified, it can certainly run a single card !

Third, I used the site and tried to associate the same cards with an Antec Signature 650W, which is already a high-end PSU and that I know for sure can run any card of today. The combination was rejected too... the 12V power info is lacking again on the site, so we get the same error!

Last but not least, I tried to associate the cards with a basic series 430W Antec PSU at 35 euros and it woked because the 12V power info was fed for this model! I also tried with an Chieftec 400W and a Silverstone 400W, two basic products, and it worked too!





One thing, though, is that Lupus has the Cooler master PSU he suggested and he says it's quite a silent one. I can't say anything about the noise of the Antec, good or bad. The only point I can stress is that, after using 80mm fans for a long time in their PSUs, Antec now uses 120mm fans in this series (and several others), and this should theoretically be more silent that their previous 80mm models. But I can't say more, never tested the noise of that model.

Just one observation or two if you go for i7 don't buy a cheap psu no matter if you plan to use sli or not, if you plan on going sli buy an 850w or higher psu like the corsair ones with a single rail that can provide 50amps or more.

Nvidia is about to introduce the new 300 series of cards if you have time wait for them as they will be directx 11 compatible
all the previous ones aren't.

Don't know how ati is doing with AO atm but they do have the best cards for the time being (bang for buck ratio), consider them if they work with AO.

I have an i7 920 on a evga classified motherboard with 12gigs of corsair ddr3 ram and 2x285 evga cards in sli on a 1000w corsair psu and it works like a dream but did cost an arm and a leg to make.

So, recap after putting both setups in the internet shop of my choice (alternate.NL):

The 'Lupus alternative' wrote:Video: Asus ENGTS250/DI/1GD3 (€109,90)
Processor: AMD Phenom II X4 955 (€139,90)
Power: Cooler Master Silent Pro M 600W (€79.90)
Case: Cooler Master Centurion 5 (€54.90)
Optical: Samsung SH-S223C (€19.99)
Mobo: Asus M4A79XTD EVO (€94.90)
HD: Western Digital WD2500AAKS x2 (2x €39.99, ntend to RAID)
Mem: OCZ 4 GB DDR3-1333 Kit (its a kit of 2 pieces) (€99.90)

Total cost = €679.37

The 'Chris alternative' (somewhat altered) wrote:Video: Asus EN9800GT/DI/512MD3
Processor: Intel® Core™ i5-750 (€172,90)
Power: Antec EarthWatts 650W (€62,90)
Case: Antec Three Hundred (€ 42,99)
Optical: Samsung SH-S223C (€19.99, intentionally put in the same as its /care mostly)
Mobo: Asus P7P55-M (€ 99,90)
HD: Western Digital WD2500AAKS x2 (2x €39.99, intend to RAID)
Mem: OCZ 2 GB DDR3-1333 kit (its a kit of 2 pieces) (€ 61,90)

Total cost = € 624,47

I'll post a few more comments to make your life easier (or not hehe) later today.



Core, as you're at it with us, in the past you told me DFI motherboards were really great. How is the situation today? I'm thinking of (probably) getting an i7 system sometimes in the next months and so far I I was thinking of an ASus MB for that (the brand I always had the less issues with, corssing fingers, and I was always -or almost- able to configure as it should be). P.S.: I don't think I'd got for dual graphic cards setups, as I don't play extremely high-demanding video games.

Ok, let's confuse Mophro a bit more, or maybe help him.

General thought: the system you want to build has nothing "high-end critical", so you have a lot more choice and you can even compromise (for example, pick the case you like the most aesthetically.)

Computer cases: both will do the job. Each one has small advantages over the other one, nothing important.
Washable air filters for Antec, or (almost?) tool-free assembly for Cooler Master? Two large exhaust fans close to each other for Antec each one with 3 speeds selector and an extremely open perforated front bezel, or one large exhaust fan and a smaller intake fan but placed on the opposite side (more logical) for Cooler Master? But also more optional fans for Antec? Front panel connectors at the top for Antec, at the feet of the case for CM? (Which is the more convenient for you?!) Etc.
It's your pick in the end. What you like the most.

PSU: both will do the job too. Both Antec and CM are serious companies. Personally, I dislike when manufacturers invest in the look of PSUs because it's less money for what's inside, but, hell, they are all going to do that now even Antec. The CM looks well designed, modular cables are handy, and they claim it's a "silent" series (and Lupus seems to confirm) while the Antec doesn't belong to the "silent" series of the manufacturer. It delivers less power than the Antec but it seems it's more pleasant to use. So maybe it's your choice, and you can install it in ANY of the two cases. It will work. So an Antech case + a CM PSU is possible. (As well as the opposite.)

Graphic cards: both will work well. Probably slightly faster for the 250-based one for some things, or you save some bucks with the 9800-based one.
But Core is right: at the moment, ATI offers the best cards in almost all the situations. The problem with AO and ATI is that AO is still (and until the new engine) based on an old implementation of DirectX 7 and Nvidia supports DirectX7 a bit better than ATI.
This is the reason why we went for Nvidia BUT it's because I don't know how the current ATI cards run with AO! Playing safe here, that's all. If the current ATI models run well with AO, then no reason for getting Nvidia. But I don't know.

RAM: you mention only 2GB for my suggestion but I put 4GB in my last proposal and so did Lupus. Anyhow, 2 GB is what you NEED today to be comfortable on a home machine. You don't strictly need 4GB unless you run RAM-intensive applications or a lot of simultaneous applications. But, indeed, 4GB is nice to have, and gives you room. (Of course, high-end specialized applications now easily require up to 12GB and more on PCs.)
Conclusion: what you want, and 4GB if you can.

DVD/CD: the OEM Samsung will work OK. No need to worry about anything else for this class of system.

Hard drive(s): here, Lupus and I will always be on different planets I guess He likes RAD 0 to increase HD speed by splitting data and write/read operations over 2 disks. I dislike the solution because it multiplies by 2 the risk of disk failure, and data will be harder to recover in this case. If you go for RAID 0, at least make sure you invest in a good backup system so I can sleep! (Yes, I'm a very stressed person.) Side note: RAID performance also depends on the RAID controller.
Conclusion: your pick really.

CPU and MB: both solutions are good.

• Intel Core i5 on 1156 socket:
  • faster indeed
    more expensive
    not much CPU upgrade possibilities in the very near future and after like 3 years without changing the MB; on the other hand, around 2 years, the already existing CPUs for the 1156 socket should be cheaper and offer good upgrade possibilities, plus a few new CPUs likely
  AMD on AMD3 socket
  • less expensive
    less fast but still pretty good
    relatively better quality/price ratio
    wider upgrade possibilities for the CPU

Note: this is about CPU-only upgrades. Most future improvements in PCs will required to change MBs.

Good luck!

Ok thanks Chris for that recap. Helped a lot.
Below is what I am currently thinking.
The pc-builder site told me that the antec-psu was not compatible with either of the video-cards. Chris told me (and i believe him) that this in fact not correct. Because I dont want to have a hassle with the sellers in the off chance i get problems with either, I decided against that psu. Maybe ill write up an email to the sellers to have them double-check the antec site and update their configurations.
Furthermore I also made a few minor modifications regarding deliverability. I now have only components that their site tells me they have in stock.

So here goes:

...
  CPU:     (€ 172,90) Intel® Core™ i5-750 
  MoBo:    (€  99,90) Asus P7P55-M 
  Memory:  (€  56,90) OCZ 2 GB DDR3-1333 Kit 
  Video:   (€  94,90) Asus EN9800GT/DI/1GD3 (better stock and a bit better so wth 
  Psu:     (€  79,90) Cooler Master Silent Pro M 600W 
  Case:    (€  42,99) Antec Three Hundred 
  Hd:      (€  79,98) Western Digital WD2500AAKS (2x)
  Optical: (€  14,99) Samsung SH-D162D (earlier one is no longer selectable, this is cheaper too)
           ----------
Total =    (€ 642.46)

One thing, the Samsung SH-D162D is a player but NOT a writer. You can't record anything with it. Hence its lower price.



For the rest:

Both configurations by Lupus and me were good ones. Both could do the job well. Both should be reliable. You couldn't make an error by picking one or the other, but each one had some slight advantages or weaknesses. Combining them is good too.

You'll be able to add one or two more GB of RAM later if you see that you tend to use it a lot and especially if you use Vista or 7, Vista being in fact more demanding very often. (Lupus and I suggested 4GB but I already telked about that in my post just above.)

I didn't check the RAM model you selected. It looks OK a priori. I could have a look after a night of sleep.

Now, and before you order, I remind you the point Lupus had about CPU upgrades and what I already said myself.

If we consider CPU upgrades ONLY (not any other improvement in PC technologies) and without changing the MB, with the Intel Core i5 on a 1156 socket, you will very likely have your best upgrade time frame between 18 months from now and 30 months from now because the CPUs already available for this socket will see their prices drop and a few ones might be released. Before that, you won't have any interesting options, probably, and after that, you'll have nothing more for this socket unless we don't know something. Only AMD can (likely) offer a smoother and longer CPU-only upgrade curve.

One more thing to add mop if you stay xp indeed 2gigs are enough if you go win7 (which is what you should do on a new pc) you ll need 4gigs and for win7 64bit double that (8 gigs) other than that the i5 is indeed the budget conscientious choice atm on mid level rigs if you want intel and chris has pretty much covered it.

As for your question chris i7 motherboards are a different story much more expensive due to the nature of the platform
(triple channel ram, 4x16 pci-x lanes etc) if you don't care about sli or crossfire than you can get an asus p6t deluxe which I use for my media pc and works pretty good plus its not too costly. Also good offerings atm are gigabyte ex58 and evga classified the evga is very high end with solid capacitors etc while the gigabyte is cheap and probably best bang for buck.
The asus is probably somewhere in the middle. Personally I wouldn't buy the gigabyte because of past history with the company's offerings but thats just me.

Also buy a good one rail psu to go with it like the corsair tx650w (minimum) with 80 plus certification and 52 amps capable in 12volts you never know when / if you decide to go sli /crossfire once you setup a rig like this one.

Check out a corsair review at silent pc http://www.silentpcreview.com/article813-page1.html

Most issues that occur on this platform are due to bad / incompatible psus so don't go cheap on it w/e you end up choosing.

I m stressing the psu issue because when I first assembled my gaming rig it wouldn't even boot with a zalman silent 650w the motherboard however had pretty self explanatory codes telling me that the vga cards weren't getting enough juice so ended up buying that 1000w corsair and never had a problem since.
*edit*
On the asus side there is also the p6t non deluxe which is the same thing but with only two 16 pci-x lanes which is even cheaper

Just a quick note about the ram: its a kit of 2x2g so the 4g is covered.

@Chrisax: I have an Asus P6T SE motherboard for my i7, socket 1366 of course.

Works like a charm. And congrats Mopsel (you ordered right?)