Cheree has been a great help to me in the past.FC Banned Cheree
Now, I'd really like to say that I agree with you all, but I don't.
What we are hearing is the story from one perspective, so we aren't seeing the whole picture. If you are, sorry if I'm offending anyone here, dumb enough to post exploits on the forums for the game, you should get banned. If you are uncertain if something is an exploit or not, contact support, don't post it on the forums. And just because "everyone is doing it" doesn't mean that it's OK. That there are a few players who get banned for it is good for everyone.
Look at it this way, you're a developer for a game, there's a bug in it that can be exploited. A large part of the playerbase is abusing this exploit. You can't fix the bug in a short timeframe because it would involve rewriting a large part of the game. How do you get people to stop using this exploit?
Now, there are three easy ways, that I can see, to defuse this situation.
1. Make a public statement about the exploit.
Good point - Makes everyone aware it's an exploit, and shouldn't be used.
Bad point - Makes everyone aware of the exploit.
2. Ban the players you have the most firm evidence against and/or the ones spreading the information about how to use it.
Good point - Sends a clear message that this won't be tolerated.
Bad point - This thread, not everybody will be aware of it.
3. Ban everyone using it.
Good point - Gets rid of the problem.
Bad point - You lose half your subscriber base.
The point with the least financial casualties is #1 or #2, the trouble is that #1 probably won't stop the problem until bans are issued, while #2 will victimize some players, leading to frustration against the company.
I'd say #2 is the most efficient and damage-controlling method to handle this situation, I sympathize with what you guys are saying, but I don't think this was an unjust thing for FC to do.
Anyway, this is all IMHO, and since we won't hear the story from both sides, we can only speculate.
Also, no, I don't think it's unfair of FC to not tell us their side of the story, that is standard practice for good reasons.
What we are hearing is the story from one perspective, so we aren't seeing the whole picture. If you are, sorry if I'm offending anyone here, dumb enough to post exploits on the forums for the game, you should get banned. If you are uncertain if something is an exploit or not, contact support, don't post it on the forums. And just because "everyone is doing it" doesn't mean that it's OK. That there are a few players who get banned for it is good for everyone.
Look at it this way, you're a developer for a game, there's a bug in it that can be exploited. A large part of the playerbase is abusing this exploit. You can't fix the bug in a short timeframe because it would involve rewriting a large part of the game. How do you get people to stop using this exploit?
Now, there are three easy ways, that I can see, to defuse this situation.
1. Make a public statement about the exploit.
Good point - Makes everyone aware it's an exploit, and shouldn't be used.
Bad point - Makes everyone aware of the exploit.
2. Ban the players you have the most firm evidence against and/or the ones spreading the information about how to use it.
Good point - Sends a clear message that this won't be tolerated.
Bad point - This thread, not everybody will be aware of it.
3. Ban everyone using it.
Good point - Gets rid of the problem.
Bad point - You lose half your subscriber base.
The point with the least financial casualties is #1 or #2, the trouble is that #1 probably won't stop the problem until bans are issued, while #2 will victimize some players, leading to frustration against the company.
I'd say #2 is the most efficient and damage-controlling method to handle this situation, I sympathize with what you guys are saying, but I don't think this was an unjust thing for FC to do.
Anyway, this is all IMHO, and since we won't hear the story from both sides, we can only speculate.
Also, no, I don't think it's unfair of FC to not tell us their side of the story, that is standard practice for good reasons.
Rulz, I gotta say, I don't think you're aware of much that goes on in this story. That's part of why I said not to email unless you know Cheree, but also why it is important to know more about towers and such.
Simply put:
a) The "exploits" have been around for ages. Notum Wars has been out for years, and PvP mechanics have been around since before Notum Wars. Funcom can't claim to fix these things "slow", because they don't fix them at all.
b) These "exploits" are well known to anyone who does a lot of tower wars (not necessarily known as exploits to all, like Cheree in the past, but definitely known as techniques). -nothing- that Cheree revealed was news to the people who would use it. It -was- a surprise to me that some of those things are considered exploits.
Many of these behaviors (like xferring lands to other orgs and timeshifting lands) are used frequently, and it is broadcast to every org on the dimension when these things are being done, yet Funcom waits until a complaint is lodged after months of this open and obvious behavior? I wonder how many other people had no clue that Funcom considered these to be exploits? Hell, we considered timeshifting AP's tower sites at one time.
c) Funcom doesn't ban everyone who does it, nor do they actively look for the people who do it, they simply lay in wait for someone to complain about another person and then strike that person.
d) There are other similar things that people do, and other things that can or should be considered exploits, but aren't and/or are not enforced.
Simply put, any bug that Funcom thinks is bad is labelled an exploit and people are banned for using them. But they are rarely if ever fixed. The "exploit" label could be called a "will not fix, but you can't use" label. And Funcom doesn't make it clear until it is often too late what is and is not an exploit.
What happens when you take all of the above together is that the people who find a real exploit continue to use it silently, people who discover it on their own and don't realize its an exploit tell their friends about it, and its the 2nd group that gets punished, not the first.
Was anyone complaining that Funcom bans exploiters? No. They were complaining because they do so unfairly, and they do so in a manner that is unpredictable.
I think the fact that SO many people complained, and people that AP respects and trusts in-game, should tell you something about this case.
PS. There is good reason why people smile when they see GM Haitte, and as often as not say "just delete my petition" when they see GM Vichen. Funcom has good people, great people, but not all Funcom employees fit that mold ... some people just shouldn't be in a public-facing role.
Simply put:
a) The "exploits" have been around for ages. Notum Wars has been out for years, and PvP mechanics have been around since before Notum Wars. Funcom can't claim to fix these things "slow", because they don't fix them at all.
b) These "exploits" are well known to anyone who does a lot of tower wars (not necessarily known as exploits to all, like Cheree in the past, but definitely known as techniques). -nothing- that Cheree revealed was news to the people who would use it. It -was- a surprise to me that some of those things are considered exploits.
Many of these behaviors (like xferring lands to other orgs and timeshifting lands) are used frequently, and it is broadcast to every org on the dimension when these things are being done, yet Funcom waits until a complaint is lodged after months of this open and obvious behavior? I wonder how many other people had no clue that Funcom considered these to be exploits? Hell, we considered timeshifting AP's tower sites at one time.
c) Funcom doesn't ban everyone who does it, nor do they actively look for the people who do it, they simply lay in wait for someone to complain about another person and then strike that person.
d) There are other similar things that people do, and other things that can or should be considered exploits, but aren't and/or are not enforced.
Simply put, any bug that Funcom thinks is bad is labelled an exploit and people are banned for using them. But they are rarely if ever fixed. The "exploit" label could be called a "will not fix, but you can't use" label. And Funcom doesn't make it clear until it is often too late what is and is not an exploit.
What happens when you take all of the above together is that the people who find a real exploit continue to use it silently, people who discover it on their own and don't realize its an exploit tell their friends about it, and its the 2nd group that gets punished, not the first.
Was anyone complaining that Funcom bans exploiters? No. They were complaining because they do so unfairly, and they do so in a manner that is unpredictable.
I think the fact that SO many people complained, and people that AP respects and trusts in-game, should tell you something about this case.
PS. There is good reason why people smile when they see GM Haitte, and as often as not say "just delete my petition" when they see GM Vichen. Funcom has good people, great people, but not all Funcom employees fit that mold ... some people just shouldn't be in a public-facing role.
This was a big part of the point I was trying to make, nobody does, not you, not Cheree, not Funcom, there is a minimum of 2 sides to all of these stories.Rulz, I gotta say, I don't think you're aware of much that goes on in this story.
a) I can see your point, and although I may not understand FunCom's decicions regarding this, I don't have enough insight into the matter to say if they are wrong or right in their decicion.
b) That a bug is well known and frequently used to gain an advantage does not justify its use.
c) Again, a part of the point I was trying to make, this isn't some crucade to get certain people banned, it's also not an attempt to ban every person who does it. It's like getting a speeding ticket, everybody does it, the reason you got it and not everybody is that 1. it would take up a hell of a lot of resources and 2. it would eliminate a large amount of the user base, and (as in the case of the speeding ticket) would cause more harsh feelings. It's simply a warning "if you do this, you are breaking the rules and can be banned". And as you later mentioned, that it is unpredictable (you don't know if you'll be cought or not) is a deterrant from doing these things.
d) I'm not familiar with what exploits exist in AO, but any bug that is used to gain an advantage is an exploit, if it is enforced or not is a different manner. If you see an exploit being used that gives somebody else an advantage over you, petition it.
Please keep in mind that a bug is an error in the software, and bad design can be, but isn't always, a bug.
I have seen cases where huge portions of the game's population has risen up against the devs due to what they feel is an unfair ban, because the story they have heard have come from the person who was banned. Fortunately, in these cases, I have been able to hear both sides of the story, and I have yet to see a single case of an unfair ban.I think the fact that SO many people complained, and people that AP respects and trusts in-game, should tell you something about this case.
MMORPG's don't make profit by banning members for no reason. If the person decreases the enjoyment of playing for other players so much that a single other player will quit, then the ban is welcomed in my eyes. The rules are very lenient in this regard, you can cause a lot of grief for other players before you will be banned.
Unfortunately, incidents like this can happen, where a contributer to the community is banned for something "everybody else" does. This is, IMHO, unfortunate, but not the fault of the devs, employees, or other affilates to FC, but the player's fault.
1) Its kind of lame in my opinion to make such a strong case about there being 2 sides and essentially defending Funcom's ham-handed tactics, when in the same message you first said that, you also defended their policy of -not- disclosing things.Rulzern wrote:This was a big part of the point I was trying to make, nobody does, not you, not Cheree, not Funcom, there is a minimum of 2 sides to all of these stories.Rulz, I gotta say, I don't think you're aware of much that goes on in this story.
2) Sure, Funcom may have another side to it, but everything in this case happened in a very transparent manner. If anything, that is what upset Funcom the most. They essentially got caught being ham-handed and their change of the ban to a 7-day instead of permanent is a tacit admission of such.
I may not know what Funcom would say (but wait, I sorta do) but I'm very familiar with all aspects of the possible story and knew many of the parties involved before taking a stand (and had a pretty good understanding of both). I appreciate devil's advocacy, but generally speaking the devil was familiar with the issues and details, not just the theory.
Guys FC has always banned people who are openly discussing "exploits" in
AO public forums.
These "exploits" have been used since notum wars expansion came to live, if FC wanted to fix any of them I believe they would have been fixed by now.
This is a tactic FC uses to suppress information about "sensitive" ingame matters.
Cheree is an old player he should have known that he was exposing himself,
that however doesn't mean I disagree with what he said.
Glad it's only a one week ban...
AO public forums.
These "exploits" have been used since notum wars expansion came to live, if FC wanted to fix any of them I believe they would have been fixed by now.
This is a tactic FC uses to suppress information about "sensitive" ingame matters.
Cheree is an old player he should have known that he was exposing himself,
that however doesn't mean I disagree with what he said.
Glad it's only a one week ban...
Hi guys..
I took the liberty of registering on your forums. I hope you guys don't mind.
We (LB) would like to thank everyone that supported Cheree and Leet-Bloc in this effort to get Cheree reinstated. We appreciate your allegiance and support.
Ani
I took the liberty of registering on your forums. I hope you guys don't mind.
We (LB) would like to thank everyone that supported Cheree and Leet-Bloc in this effort to get Cheree reinstated. We appreciate your allegiance and support.
Ani
~~~For every action there is an equal and opposite rection~~~Newton~~~
