150 MA weighted PvM/PvP

[Alphacenta]

@noobas that mp pet thing is bull, they got a set amount of AR and of course the higher level the pets are the more AR they get (and if you buff it more, etc).

45 MP wouldn't cast top meatball, Vekara of course easily casts top meatball, it almost never hits my advy.. who certainly doesn't have 2k+ def.

[Syn_captian]

top meat ball is nothing compaired to this pet the MP twinks at TL 5 use:

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=225894

Compairing Stats:
May hit a lil lower but hits about 2x as fast and has roughly 1k MORE ar than the meatball

Your advy may evade the meatball but think about this:
1.) we are talking about pets that have lvl locks for a reason. Not saying that top meatball isnt good or anything, but comparing the meatball to this pet is like compairing SPB to a dread shark, it's great for your lvl, but compair it to a higher lvl and it's nothing.
2.) The only MP's that we fight are 165+, we are 150. 15 LVL differences hurt


Imo, you can't comment on something you haven't experienced first hand, being that your advy is only 110 you can't really say this is bull when you haven't gone against the pet we are talking about yourself.

*NOTE*
This isn't meant to be a put down not or anything negative(always feel like i have to put this b/c sometimes i say things in a way that might be taken differently than i had intended for them to be taken)

[Alphacenta]

Ok since we are getting more theoretical, here's one for you to chew on:

Click for a post from 2007 by MP professional Ebagmp that calculated the top 3 MP pets AR. Ettu (201 pet) has around 1455 AR unbuffed methinks.

So. First we need a friendly MP with Biazu to crit a BY leet, first with an unbuffed Biazu and then they have to give it an Evocation buff and make it crit again..

Following Kuznechiks method found here: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showpo ... ostcount=7

We can calculate the AR of the pet easily.

But honestly I doubt it's gonna be 2k or more.

I'll see if I can bug a friendly MP soon. Or you do it first and post the crit results here.

Keep in mind they have to do a couple crits to be sure the pets don't dual (like CEO Guardian) or triple wield (like Carlo Pinetti). Also gotta keep in mind Evocs also add +damage.

[Syn_captian]

that might be true about the BASE ar of the PET, however, if you look at the nano that i posted, it clearly states:

ATTACK SKILLS:
Time and space 50%
Matter and creation 50%

If im thinking right then this means that a certain amount is added to the ar of the pet depending on the TS and MC of the user.
(this is how im thinking:
~Base AR of the pet
+
~Certian %*[(.5*MC skill)+(.5*TS skill)]
= total AR you have coming at you.)
which makes tons of sense because:
1.) if not, my fat atrox soldier would be evadeing nearly every pet i came across and would make casting pets nearly worthless.
2.) Weapon's ar are calced based off the skills stated in the "Attack skills" section of the weapon, why wouldnt nanos?

[Alphacenta]

Complete Healing:

Attack skills
Biological metamorphosis 52 %
Matter metamorphosis 48 %

Yet it doesn't start healing more if I get higher BM MM.

--------

Candycane:

Attack skills
Matter creation 100 %

Has a constant damage (540 pvm per 'hit'), but it doesn't start doing more damage if I only get more MC.

Both of these are easy to check. That theory that it is based off the Attack Skills of the nano just doesn't hold water, or else other nanos would have a similar effect.

While you are right that the nano's AR gets calculated off these attack skills (chance to LAND the nano), nano effects don't scale if you get more nanoskills. And a nano that you don't meet the requirements for, doesn't go OE, you can't cast it at all anymore. They're two different things man.

-------------------

But anyway, also this theory is easy to check - make MP cast Biazu, let it crit a leet a few times. Note values. Terminate pet, cast CI or CM8 on self, recast Biazu, and let it crit a few leets again. Note values.

I honestly DOUBT you will see any sort of difference. At all.

PS: Keep in mind that base AR isn't everything - that typical 201+ MP pet has Evocation of the Enraged running permanently, which is a +500 AAO buff. Also pets don't have to perk, they can land regulars np. Haven't you ever landed burst or something on a fixer? I also hear frequent complaints from crats that they get hit with around 7k evades (Dodge the blame perk up)... so. Go figure.

[Alphacenta]

Can any mod split this MP branch of the thread and move it to the MP forums please? Sucks to be hijacking Mardonge's thread hehe..

[Syn_captian]

hehe yeah, sorry about hijacking your thread

Ok, your logic is making sense, but i really dont get how it works. I mean, even though your logic works, i get hit a lot by MP pet's with DoF running (that puts me at 2350 evades). It just dont make sense!

[Alphacenta]

It's called randomness.

[Mardonge]

Actually, don't split it to MP forums, I'd like to have it here as I brought it up as a concerne on my MA

[noobas]

lupus says: randomness

I call bullshit.

It's totally not random, in fact it's so not random I'd rather call it broken.

See, I went through the same test with jimbob, a month ago I think: 213(?) enf vs end game equipped MA.

I flagged up to let jim try to hit me. No offense here Jim, but I've got a lot more evades than you have AR, YET, jim could hit me with normal hits almost every single time. Which, begs the question: WTF!?

So, wtf is goin on if normal hits land so regularly that evades don't even seem to matter?

Does BASE AR mean something totally different than specials AR? I mean, we all know theres a different check for FA, brawl, FA, burst, but, what about normal attacks?

Similarly, if you've got a level XX pet, and he's just attacking you "normally" and he's hitting you WITHOUT FAIL, wtf? Since when is his offensive modifiers so good that your evades aren't worth a poo in the bush?

Or, better yet, do "normal" (IE, Q/afk) attacks have a different check than AR vs. evades+AAD?
Something like 2xAR vs evades+AAD seems to be more appropriate, given the regularity of landed hits.

Anyone want to enlighten us?

[Hyde]

It scales. The actual hit =probability= is randomized within the scale but over time statistically will be a predictable number. I don't remember the exact figures, but go look for the most recent thread that tried to figure out evades. The numbers I post below are pulled out of my butt and not meant to be real, just to illustrate the concept.

1000 AR vs -1 DEF = hitting 100% of the time and critting 100%

... (this is why Aune hurts people SO bad when they debuff evades to the negative range)

1000 AR vs. 0 DEF = hitting 100% of the time and critting close to 100%

... (easily verified on BY mobs)

1000 AR vs 500 DEF (2:1) = hitting 90% of the time and critting significantly

... (the above is why Docs and many Sols only tended to raise evades to the 1K-ish mark ... to reduce crits ... not to actually evade anything ... however many today don't raise evades even that high because of all the -crit items in game unless they are regular PvPers. Docs especially since we fight so much above DEF that evades are pointless except as -crit)

1000 AR vs. 1000 DEF (1:1) = hitting around 66% of the time with normal crit chance

1000 AR vs. 1500 DEF (1:1.5) = hitting around 33% of the time with about -25% less crit chance

1000 AR vs. 2000 DEF (1:2) = hitting around 10% of the time with around -50% crit chance ... maybe more

... (It's easy to see this on a very low AR toon like a Doc who is shooting a Fixer or MA ... like my Doc with 2K AR trying to hit a MA with 3K DEF ... which would be another 1:1.5 ratio ... or pop DoF+Limber to get the 1:2 ratio).

NOTE: when I saw -25% crit chance I'm not saying -25 to your %chance ... ie if you had 20% chance before you would have less than 0% ... rather I'm suggesting a division of your chance such that a toon with 20% chance, after this equation, would have 15% ... however this part I think is the most contentious and could use some testing. Would be easy to do by pitting my Doc with 20% or so chance against a toon with at least 3K static evades and measuring to see if he ever crits and if so how often. Remember however that crit chance is already halved in PvP.

I've been on the low end of the AR vs. DEF argument for a long time with my Doc. He definitely doesn't always miss but VERY definitely hits far far less on evaders. To the point of nearly 0% against an evader with perks popped. Also, I'm pretty sure have more DEF on my Fixer than you do Noobas and Jim hit me under 50% of that time during that same test. Far less than needed to defeat my HoTs and I couldn't cast the new HoTs at that point so I was using the older ones.

The bigger issue for MOST profs (except MA) is perking. Few profs can kill other profs without perks. NTs and Docs can via nanos. MAs can via stuns and regular damage via crits (as can Agents). But the rest of the profs really NEED to perk their opponent. And unlike weapon hits and specials the AR vs. DEF equation is much more of an "either/or" condition when it comes to perks. Also, due to AAD being added twice on many perk checks, is why I decided I'm pretty happy with CC on my Fixer instead of CSS ... lower evades but higher AAD ... and like you're seeing evades don't block ALL hits they just help mitigate them.

Evades also help a LOT on Full Auto because missing 1 bullet in the chain stops the chain. Which means evades are progressively -more- effective on FA. That got nerfed a bit recently due to the 3% random roll on misses/hits being removed (which would have affected the numbers above) but in some ways just makes the difference between an evader and non-evader that much bigger on resisting FAs.

[Mrfreeman]

I just thought Id pop in here to reply.
I recently dueled daddyrabbit vs my MA in all intel symbs and weilding dual shens, and missing 2 perk stuns i was planning (still in PR ) so more of a pvm setup. 2/4 duels I won,
1st duel: mud
2nd duel: free
3rd duel: free
4th duel: mud
ok so the first duel I was not ready for and had chained perks so couldnt heal or pop my evades. the next 2 duels Mud couldnt even get his alpha off on me and I was doing 1 perk at a time so I could change the order up mid fight (not chained). the last duel mud did a MR alpha which hurt, hurt alot really, but i was able to stop it with stuns but i was too badly hurt by the time MR ran out (ie i didnt run when he was stunned) and lost over time. for the most part i was evading his normal hits, and afaik his perks.

and later i dueled fornum (not end game gear) and he couldnt hit me enough to cause enough dmg either

[Alphacenta]

Nice posts all hehe.. just have one question:

Also, due to AAD being added twice on many perk checks, is why I decided I'm pretty happy with CC on my Fixer instead of CSS ... lower evades but higher AAD ... and like you're seeing evades don't block ALL hits they just help mitigate them.

What perks check AAD twice? I don't know about any of these?

Champion of ... perks check AAO twice, but as far as I'm aware not AAD twice.